RealTracks Traction Tests

schmenzer · #1 06-04-2009, 11:14 AM

I wanted a baseline for times running my Kyosho dNaNos on the stock RealTracks TrackPack 20 setup before I try an idea I have to get more traction on the race surface. I have been trying to figure out what track surface I am going to use at Mini Speedway for the dNaNos and the new FlatTrack version of the RealTracks is in the running especially if my traction increasing idea works.

So, I shot a couple of minutes of video to watch the cars and to time the laps. The video shows just how touchy the cars are when I get on the power a little too much. It is a hair-trigger type thing. I think some folks would like the fairly realistic way the cars lose traction but I really want to explore the speed of the dNaNos a bit more so I will be attempting to increase the traction of the RealTracks surface. My goal is to simulate the feeling I get running my Mini-Zs on the 50cm RCP track.

When I originally got the TrackPack 20 almost a year ago I was running Epoch cars and the traction of the RealTracks surface was decent for the performance offered by my stock Epochs. However, when I got my first dNaNo it was clear that the new Mini Kyosho had a ton more power than could be put down effectively on the RealTracks race surface.

When running my Porsche 917K on stock RealTrack it is hard to put the power down even with the KT-18 transmitter in training mode to tame the power delivery. Average laps were about 6.1 seconds with a couple of 5.7 second laps.

Running my Mazda 787B with the KO Propo EX1-UR turned down to 24% on the throttle I was a bit less consistent for this test but the fastest laps were 5.5 seconds with an average right around 6.1 seconds as well.

Video of the dNaNo Porsche 917K

Video of the dNaNo Mazda 787B

On with the track surface modification in which I apply thinned Household Goop to the track surface! Viva la traction!

RCP-Tracks, Inc · #2 06-04-2009, 11:59 AM

I spent a good portion of last year testing a variety of plastic and hard surfaces specifically for the upcoming release of the dNaNo. I used a variety of home brew traction compounds ranging from orange juice to apple cider. I poured the contents into a spray bottle and lightly coated the surface. This process yielded great temporary grip for the small scale RC cars, but it had it's major downfall.

Applying the traction compound to the track allowed the tires to become like magnets. The tires became incredibly sticky and would pick up any dust, hair or dirt from the track, just in a few laps. Even the slightest bit of dirt or hair stuck to a dNaNo tire would cause the car to vibrate dramatically. It was so bad, you would need to pick up the car and clean the tires with water or some other substance. After just a few more laps, the car would then become un-drivable again, until cleaning of the tires was completed. The added traction compound would also build up in the small tiny axles and cause the front tires to not spin freely. With the small dNaNo, just the slightest bit of resistance on the front wheels would make the car undriveable in the turns.

Although the traction compound did give the cars great grip, it was short lived after a few laps of the car picking up the dirt and dust. If you can find something that would become sticky on the plastic track, but would not build up on the tires and axles, that would be your best.

schmenzer · #3 06-04-2009, 12:05 PM

Look no further for the "Magic Mix" this is not a temporary compound. It is as permanent as it gets. I have been using the same basic mixture in RC airplane applications for years. If fact, it is so tough that in mid-airs the underlying structure breaks while the Goop mixture holds the outer skin together. If you are the "experimenting" type don't over look this.

Greg

schmenzer · #4 06-04-2009, 12:09 PM

I thought I'd also mention that in over 1000 laps on this new surface with my dNaNos they have NOT picked up a speck of dirt. They are as clean as when they came out of the box.

FYI, I Love RCP track too. I have over 6-Wide L's worth at the shop and while I really like it for Mini-Zs it does create some dust that, over time, needs cleaning on the dNaNos.

Don't even get me started on carpet!

schmenzer · #5 06-04-2009, 12:13 PM

As I mentioned in a preiously I want to improve the traction of my RealTracks race track to better suit the power of my dNaNos. I feel the stock surface, while great for low power cars like the Epoch, is too slippery for the dNaNo.

For the new surface I am going to use thinned Household Goop (Plumber's Goop is the same thing as far as I can tell so get which ever is cheaper). I use Toluene to thin the Goop to about Maple Syrup consistency. It takes a while to mix and I let the mixture sit for a while between mixings so the Goop will dissolve in the Toluene. BTW, this is a thing you want to do either outside or in a place with good ventilation. If you do it at home and are married, prepare for a confrontation! The fumes are not something you want to huff! Probably a good idea to wear gloves too.

Before I applied the Goop mixture I used Alcohol to clean the RealTracks tiles. Toluene is a good solvent but it does affect the RealTracks plastic if it is allowed to pool and rubbed. It does not immediately dissolve the surface but to be safe I am only using it in the final application of the Goop. I suspect that the Toluene would also remove any painted stripes. Even the Alcohol removed a little.

After the Alcohol dried I used blue painter's tape to mask off the connecting tabs so assembling the track would still be easy.

I used a small foam roller to spread a thin but even coat of mixed material on the top of the RealTracks surface and worked the roller enough to get some small bubbles in the Goop mixture and then set the track piece aside to dry. BTW, I did try applying the mixture on the underside of the track to check compatibility and was pleased with the result so I went ahead and applied it to the actual running surface.

One tube of Goop and about 4 or 5 ounces of Toluene did a dozen RealTacks tiles. I ended up using almost two tubes total and about 7 ounces of Toluene for the entire RealTracks TrackPack 20 set.

After I had all the track parts coated I left them in the shop overnight. The Goop mixture actually dries to the touch on about an hour but the solvent takes longer to totally dissolve and the associated odor is persistent as well!

I guess I should add a disclaimer here: This mod is not reversible. From my tests it does not ruin the track but you will not be able to remove the Goop once it is applied. Except for the added traction you will hardly notice it is on the track.

On with the driving. Check out the next article as I discover if all this rig-a-ma-role was worth it.

schmenzer · #6 06-04-2009, 12:17 PM

First of the results are GREAT! The surface has more traction without being silly sticky.

Test car dNaNo Mazda 787B. This car is set up with my EX-1UR radio and is a bit easier to control than a dNaNo running with the stock KT-18. So, how did the Mazda fair? In the previous test on a stock RealTracks surface the Mazda was touchy even with the stickiest tires I could put on the back. The car, even at 24% on the throttle would easily break loose and swap ends. The best lap I ran was 5.7 seconds and the average lap was about 6.1 seconds. Not bad but I wanted more.

After the track prep as outlined here the lap times were down to an average of about 4.3 seconds with a fast lap of 4.0 seconds. Even the slowest lap with a couple of wall scrapes was 5.1 seconds, over a half second faster that the fastest lap before the track mod. That is super! In addition the car was more predictable and consistent.

I also switched the front tires on the Mazda back from the softer versions I had been running to the stock Mazda front tire which is a #50 and it seems to work well. I think I'll try a #40 to see if I can balance the car a bit more. There is a little tendency for the back to come out under power still but I have increased the throttle to 38% from 24% so there is quite a bit more power there.

Video of the Mazda 787B on the modified RealTracks surface.

Test car dNaNo Porsche 917K. This car is newer than the Mazda and I am using the stock KT-18 transmitter running in training mode to tame the throttle. I am also running stock tires on this car. On the un-modified track surface even the training mode was more than enough to break the tires loose and do donuts.

The results with the Porsche are even more impressive to me. Maybe because I drove this car second and was learning the new, grippier track more I was able to better the Mazda times by a good margin. Maybe the Porsche is just set up better for this track. Anyway, the average lap time, even with a few more wall biffs than with the Mazda was 4.2 seconds. and there were two laps at 3.8 seconds. Yeah!

Video of the Porsche 917K on the modified RealTracks surface.

So the quest to find more traction out of the RealTracks surface is an unqualified success!

As for durability only time will tell but after over 1000 laps the surface is perfect. The Goop mixture has amazing grip and, on the test patch on the underside of the track. I could not get it off without using a razor and actually scraping the plastic of the track.

arch2b · #7 06-04-2009, 12:19 PM

very interesting project you have going. i will be following this closely

i also happen to have some realtracks and my mini-z seems to do ok on the very small portion i have laid on on the floor. i ran a stock dnano on this same small portion which also did ok. i agree that anything with some high speed will require more grip from either tires and or track.

what tires were you using for these test? testing tire combinations is going to be much cheaper and easier than modifying the track surface.

MROSS 1 · #8 06-06-2009, 06:19 AM

One thing to try is PLASTI DIP by Performix. It is used to, you guessed it, to give extra grip for hand tools. It comes in a spray can and in a paint form. The best is the Spray version for tracks like Realtracks. We tried both the paint and spray versions on a track that we had laser cut back a few years ago to see if we could get better grip when racing the Epochs. We had a lot of blanks from frames we were cutting for a rear window in trucks that was removable and we had all this Black pastic with a mirror finish laying around and thought lets laser cut some track out of it..

The problem at the time was when we tried to race the Epochs on it it was like driving on ice. So we tried like I have read here just about everything to put grip down when we came across this PLASTI DIP in Home Depot. Had we tried The Realtracks plastic which has a Hair sill finish we might not have had to use the PLASTI DIP. Anyway after trying this stuff oh my god.. good by grip problem and I mean by by. The Epochs if you tried to turn to hard would filp over right now! Now the Realtracks has as I mentioned a hair sill finish and I personally get plenty of grip with my dNaNos and I did not try putting on the PLASTI DIP on the Realtrack surface. This track is the 16-inch 24pc set.

That said I have two dNaNo's the Porsche 962 C LH and the Mazda 787B.
Now my two dNaNo's are stock in every way excepte for the tires and rims. When I recieved the cars, I thought as some of you may have, that the Auto Scale tire and rims could also be used on the dNaNo's. If your laughing at this point and are thinking what an dumb ass.. don't give up on me yet... and read on! I was able to convert the Auto Scale tires and rims on both of my dNaNo's and man what a blast to race on the Realtracks. I did not use the PLASTI DIP on this track because using the Auto Scale wheels did and does the trick to get grip! And I mean the cars fly! I can only guess how well the car would hold if I added the PLASTI DIP.

For grip it seems the more I drive the dNaNos' with the Auto Scale tires and rims the better the grip gets. The same is also ture with the stock tires on the dNaNo's after a while of driving on the Realtracks the cars seem to get better grip as the tires start to ware. The other thing I like about the Auto Scale tires is they to date anyway have not worn down and I've been racing them for almost a year now, on the Realtrack for about 3 months. I drive them just about every day.

The other advantage with the Auto Scale tires and rims in my humble opion is they look great and the car really drives great. I can also race the dNaNo's on my cement driveway. I mean it is a blast there as well. Try the stock dNaNo foam tires on any cement and good by tires. The conversion of the Auto Scale tires and rims is not real easy yet it's not impossible either. Yet in the end it was well worth the effort and you will ask yourself as I have a hundred times since what the H was KYOSHO thinking? My only guess is they assume you are only going to race on a carpet or foam track.

I have four RCP tracks and if anyone wants to buy them let me know because in terms of how the Realtracks look, the time it takes to set up and the way the cars rip around on it, I can't ever see myself using the RCP tracks again. If you want to convert your dNaNo let me know and I will do the best I can to help. To date I have only tried to convert the 787B and the 962 C LH. Yet I'm sure I could convert any of the dNaNo's now. email me @ mike_ross_558@hotmail.com if converting your Auto Scale tires and rims from your dNaNo has any interest to you.

The last thing I will say is I personally like to drive my cars to the point of having the cars slide a little around the turns. Yet I know like everything in our hobby that everyone has their own thoughts as to what is good grip and what is not good grip. Lap times being the great divider and I suppose the Hallmark of this thread. So if its zero slide and great grip your looking for on your Realtracks, racing either the Epochs or the dNaNo's, try this PLASTI DIP and you may well come away one happy camper regardless of which tires you run or which car for that matter. Or do the conversion if its the dNaNo's you race, either way you will end up loving that realtracks and those dNaNo's and Epochs all the more!

arch2b · #9 06-06-2009, 09:37 AM

good read, thanks for sharing

could you please post a description on how to convert the asc wheels/tires in the parts subforum?

i've used plasti-sip for years to insulate rc antenna's and other things. i didn't know it came in a spray can.

this could be used in the manner we were talking about earlier to coat racing lines in turns. i have to go to the home depot soon anyway and i'll pick up a can if i find it.

RealTracks · #10 06-06-2009, 01:28 PM

After getting all of your emails and speaking with you Mike I was wondering when you were going to share with the masses. I only had a few minutes this morning to shoot some video. I had to do it with a digital camera because my computer with firewire is down. They are not the smoothest of laps but a few good lap times. Around 4.2’s average with a best of just under 3.7. You should be able to see each lap time in the video. Next time I will put a few more sections of removable guard rail where I occasional cut some corners. My KT-18 is set up with the throttle all the way back to the multi beep stop and 3 beeps from solid left and right travel. This allows me to apply full throttle to the stops coming off turn 7, followed by a quick lift and back on entering turn 8. Forget the training mode. Make the max throttle and lock to lock travel for each race course. Greg this should take care of the hair trigger you mentioned. I like the gradual power curve to full power that the KT-18 puts in. It’s almost like electronic limited slip. With the proper tire combinations I really don’t feel that any coatings will be required. Although I do like the thought of adding it to the racing line. I am an average to crappy driver and more limited by my skill than the traction and handling of the car on the track. I forgot how much fun a small set-up is and how quick it goes down. I think some you tube HFAY may be in order. Or since that’s already taken how about “RealTracks Time Trials”. We have been moving slow with the timing system. It’s been 99 percent done for awhile. We were trying to get the online portion complete before the release. I am thinking of adding that portion later and we could just use the “Video Recording” or “Skid Pad” screens with the big numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDVUqyGsq-Y

arch2b · #11 06-06-2009, 01:33 PM

i look forward to seeing the timing system. it sounds and looks very interesting.

have you tried some of these surface treatments?

RealTracks · #12 06-06-2009, 02:09 PM

Arch,
No I have not tried them. When I get some time I am going to try both methods on the racing line for fun. I am going to get a few macro close ups from the bottom of of my tires, if you have minute could do the same and email it to me. My mazda was a U.S. purchse and I am wondering if export or later production got different tires. That might explain the varying performance. I would like to compare the profiles.

MROSS 1 · #13 06-08-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arch2b

good read, thanks for sharing

could you please post a description on how to convert the asc wheels/tires in the parts subforum?

i've used plasti-sip for years to insulate rc antenna's and other things. i didn't know it came in a spray can.

this could be used in the manner we were talking about earlier to coat racing lines in turns. i have to go to the home depot soon anyway and i'll pick up a can if i find it.

Hello arch2b, Thank you for your comment. Yea, I never it seems have time to get in here and post, yet I will try and find the time. So please forgive me for taking so long to get back. Yes I will post pics of the dNaNo's I converted to use the Auto Scale tires and rims. I have a video of the cars (Racing) I'm using that word in it's most basic term for watching some of your videos and others racing their dNaNo's I can't claim to even that. Yet it shows what can be done and who knows some of you might want to try it. Anyway thanks for the nice comment. And try that Plasti-Dip it 100% really works for the Epoch's and when I get some stock rims and tires in for the dNaNo's I will spray down the Realtrack and post the results.

mugler · #14 06-08-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MROSS 1

I will spray down the Realtrack and post the results.

That will be really nice info to have since the goop method is too involved compared to just spraying.