Battle of the Sleepers: BRP SC18 or ABC DTM SP????

[ZenFlea]

Alright we are well aware of both these cars surprising performance and price points. I was all set on SP until I gave the BRP's a second chance and did more research. Now I'm confused. This will be my only car for awhile. For people that have driven/built both, which one did you flat out just enjoy more? I like the ability to use just about any 1/24 body on the SP and it's performance, however the BRP's can use many of the 150mm Micro bodies (GTP yumm) and they may hold up better outside. Also the possibility of ever racing the BRP's is greater with 1/18 classes popping up for the Micro rs4. Could an 18 with magnets until I learn how to drive or a Big Block run away from an SP with 180 motor and novak micro electronics in a parking lot? Which one do you find yourselves running everyday and which one ends up collecting dust?

THNKS,
Z

[gertman]

Here is my question to YOU:

If you want to run with the Micro's why not just buy one? I know at my track they have a spec class where ONLY HPI micro's can run. They would deffinitly not let a 2wd drive run with them no matter the scale!

The SP will out run a BRP simply because of weight. To my knowledge, the BRP cars are old news, and hard to get parts for. There is absoulutly no reason I can think of to get a BRP over a Micro! :rolleyes: That would be crazy.

So, the truth from me (not having a BRP) is that they would both collect dust UNLESS you know of some place where they race ABC's or will let a BRP run in the Micro class.

Don't get me wrong, I love my DTM-SP and DTM-X4 a thousand times more than my Micro..............BUT the Micro is the only one I can race at my local track.

I do USE my ABC's, only at home on my OWN track. :D

[ZenFlea]

Well the reason I would opt for the BRP is that simply out of the box it is supposedly MUCH faster then a modded micro and clearly out handles the micro on a high traction track with it's superior rear suspension. The chassis is not pretty but the layout is superb, much lower CG. Ultimately it appeals to me because it can use standard electronics, is fast with stock slot car motor with magnets, DOESN'T need many expensive hop-ups to run the way I want: precise, and the car with ball diff is only $100. I'm a simple man and the almost "zen"-like design of the BRP is just soothing. Many less parts that can break and need to be replaced or modified.
If I do decide I want to go the mod route a company called Reilly Inovations are releasing the R1 2002/2003 which is a redesigned SC18 with carbon fiber chassis and adjustable front end (camber, caster, toe-in). Also there is a hopup motor pod that allows use of the BB 300.

So I think I've just argued my way out of a micro for the forseeable future. Now, the SP still hits home runs for size (can run indoors and smaller areas), speed, and selection of bodies. Can this car with it's much shorter wheelbase and track, handle daily use on unperfect asphalt and concrete? The chassis design seems very durable and I feel with the right tires and bodies it would be pretty tough outside.

[gertman]

BRP is that simply out of the box it is supposedly MUCH faster then a modded micro and clearly out handles the micro on a high traction track with it's superior rear suspension. :o :o :o

Where exactly did you get this stuff from??:confused:

I don't really know how good an RC driver you are, but I am going to take a guess that you are about average AKA non-god-like. SO, bearing that in mind, a Micro would be alot easier to drive around a road course........not saying it would be faster BUT for an average driver, it would be easier to drive faster.

As far as complexity, your deffinitly right the BRP is alot simplier than the Micro. BUT the Micro is really not all that complex compared with the DTM-X4. The micro just has 1 belt AND it can use standard electronics like the BRP. Don't know why you would? Do you have something against 4wd?

AS far as the DTM-SP. I think you may have some problems outside, it is a rather small car. Stones may get in the gears pretty easy. Also in stock form the car sits very low. You can use a full size ESC and receiver...........BUT I don't know why you would, in any small car. WEIGHT

In closing, I really don't think your giving enough credit to how good the Micro is in stock form. Forget about all those hop-ups for a minute, it handles very well and is farly fast. New aluminum and chassis upgrades aren't going to increase top speed!;) AND, don't forget, the DTM SP has NO upgrades, per say.....

[ZenFlea]

There are accounts all over even at yourmicro.com about the performance of BRP's but you don't even have to look at them to understand why they are faster. Big block on a 2wd car with no drivetrain loss, pan car CG vs. Big Block on heavier 4wd car. Physics is still physics. I'm looking primarily at bang for buck. The micro is still more $ stock and more $ to upgrade. Both the SP and the BRP are fast out of the box. I want to spend more time enjoying the cars on a big empty parking lot than contemplating my next hopup move because the performance leaves me wanting more. I have driven both 4wd and 2wd 1/10 and 1/12 cars before so I am aware at the differences in driving style and I have driven a slightly modded micro before. Knowing myself, if I had a micro I would suffer from "what next" syndrome. I would spend all my time on the boards looking for new gofast stuff. I think I'll buy all the electronics and radio first, then decide on SP or BRP when the Reilly carbon fiber cars are released. Fast, simple, cheap, durable, and fast. That's what I want in that order. Now, what do you all think of the JR XR3? The FM magnum jr is cheaper but i like the idea of programmed trim settings for more than one car and to have a visual indication of trim settings and changing on the fly seems nice. Any opinions?

THNKS,
Z

[RAFster]

gertman,

I don't know what you are basing your knowledge on... it must be the Oval Outlaw or what you have heard.
I own three SC18s. The SC18 is a recent release. It arrived very shortly before the HPI RS4 Micro. It is a simple inexpensive pan style 2WD car with a T-plate damper disk rear suspension. Add a ball diff and you have a car that will beat many Micro Modified motor cars.

I've seen skilled SC18 drivers with a stock SC18 win repeated 5 minute heats and the main against a Big Block Ratsaz ?sp? chassis equipped Micro with a very skilled driver. The SC18 drivers had him down by nearly 3/4 lap on a 10th scale asphalt track with a 380 ft racing line after 5 minutes of racing.

The car is very durable, enough that my son who likes to drive by bumping the boards, often, hasn't broken anything other than servo savers or dislodged the steering servo (servo taped to the chassis...) or jamming the gear mesh or rear wheels into the pod. aLL Easily and quickly fixed.

The car is easy to drive and if you understand how to drive 2WD you can make them go really fast around the track. The Big Block Micro has serious push problems that limit it on the track and you need several hop ups in the front drivetrain just to be able to use it.
Our club, CORCAR, races the Micro class as a 18th scale class and limits the cell count to 6 cell and that's about it. So, the BRP SC18 goes head to head with the stock and modified micros. Some Micros with $400+ in dress ups and hopups. Many a Micro driver expressed remorse in having put so much money in their micro and getttin beaten by a $100 car when they had 3-4 times that in theirs. They were married to it and couldn't walk away from the money.
I bought my cars to race. The body is a canvas that can be painted to be nice and the BRP wheel adapters allow you to run the TRC foams or HPI/Venom outer wheels.

My kids raced Novice Touring cars this summer. I put together the SC18 and now they want to run the SC18 next summer instead of the Touring car.

But, like you said. You need to buy what you can race if you plan to race. Most cars that are bought aren't raced. The SC18 and the Micro both will struggle with gravel on the street. But a lower wheelbase and shorter track will have more problems.
The BRP has an optional T-plate that is more flexible and the rear suspension can be made softer to handle the bumps better. There are other upgrades on the way and option parts. The Reilly is going to be getting some competition from the SC18 with a carbon fiber chassis in development by the SC18 designer, Bud Bartos.

If you want to use the GTP Sport body you will need a micro sized servo and it poses some mounting issues that can be overcome easy enough. The GTP Sport body handles very nice.
The wheelbase on the SC18 is 146mm to fit a 150mm body is usually no huge deal but you have to choose a wide track body.

The BRP was designed to be durable and it is that and more. It was designed to be inexpensive and it is. It was designed to be a racer and that it is.

It's a matter of taste, money, and what you want to do with it. Some guys have built small oval tracks in their double car garage using Tar Paper for roofing and the foam "noodles" for barriers. Others have setup tracks that are 16X20 in their basement and the who family has the fun...

RAFster
David

[gertman]

Dave,

Your right I am not farmiliar with the new BRP car. BUT I never said a Micro (modified or not) was faster than a 2wd pan car aka a BRP.

What I DID say was a 1:24 scale DTM-SP using the SAME motor and same mah rated battaries would kick a BRP's butt, period! It's a matter of weight and drag of a smaller car.

I do know that my SP is a lot faster than a Micro BUT on a 10th scale track a bit of a handfull to drive.

That's really cool your track lets you run with the Micro's. MY track made it into a STUPID spec class where you can't even use hop-ups aka my car sits at home collecting dust!!! Not, because it's all hopped-up (all I added was a ball-diff) BUT becasue I HATE spec classes.

[RAFster]

You are right, you didn't say Micro...
Sorry.

I'd have a hard time seeing one beat the SC18. Does the DTM-SP use a slot car motor? You gotta be able to get the power to the ground...so if the DTM could keep things hooked up it might win. But the larger tires of the SC18 would change the effective gearing...

What is interesting is that the SC18 doesn't perform well with a "Hot" Slot car motor. Guys have tried it and had an expensive lesson. The torque and power delivery of the balanced and tuned XP magnet version of the Super 16D, in most SC18s now, delivers the power the way an SC18 thrives on. The high rpm monsters that decimate the slot car competition aren't faster in a SC18. Usually they are slower and they end their lives in a puff of smoke.

Bud has a Fun Won's kit that takes the chassis and mates a set of front 1/12 scale wheels to the SC18 chassis and it is faster than the SC18. It has the ground clearance needed for running on the street with gravel...

RAFster
David

[gordonmoney]

Zenflea,
Sounds like you know what you want already, and you've obviously done your homework. The dtm(or any 1/24 scale car) is really an indoor car and won't do well on the pavement. Rafster has already done a marvelous job of describing the sc18 and it's strengths. Go forth grasshopper and follow your zen!

[irc]

WOW! Gertman do some homework! the BRP is a very very cool car! We stock them at IRC and I just assembled one. This is a cool stright forward car that is not fragial and should stand up well to outdoor use and work great on a carpet track. The SP is also great I think I would base the decision on how large my driving space would be.

[ZenFlea]

Wow guys, this thread has certainly brought out the experts. I must say I was leaning heavily towards the SP when I started this thread. What I wanted was somebody to completely convince me about the BRP and several people responded. The SP with all my 1/24 scale bodies was intriguing, but ultimately I felt either car would probably see most use in a parking lot or driveway as I don't see myself being able to find a place with enough floorspace to do an SP justice. At least I wouldn't be able to at home :). The BRP just leaves me with so many more options as well. I can convert it to a bigwheel Fun Won for street use, use some HPI bodies, run indoors or out, and have any style wheel i could possibly want, and in the future upgrade to more advanced chassis'! The durability factor also weighs in large in the decision. So now I think I have finally made the final shopping list:

ESC: Futaba mc230cr (or if work goes well LRP Quantum Micro Reverse..is this overkill?)
RX: Novak XXL
servo: Hitec hs81mg
battery: Nicad BRP pack and Nimh high-cap pack
transmitter: Airtronics MX-3
ball differential, motor magnets, ball bearings for front wheels, softer T-plate
HPI Wheel Conversion w/wheels
Body: ARM Toyota GRP (what body modifications are needed to fit this?)

Thanks again for all the advice guys, I can now feel confident about all this upcoming irrational spending!

Z

[irc]

zenflea, good choice for how you intend to use the car.BTW your shopping list looks good but I would reccomend a standard size servo as IM sure the car is set up to be run with one for weight distribution and I know the body mount is used with the servo.

[BudBartos]

Zenflea >> The BRP SC18 will beat any of those cars. We have raced our cars with just the ball diff, orange front tires and XP mag motor and beat totally modified micros with the big block motor in them.
The thing is not many have seen our cars run but when they do they just shake there heads and wonder how they can be that fast. Have fun :D

[gordonmoney]

Zenflea,
Stick with the hs81mg servo if you want to use a gtp style body. There is not much clearance in the front end of those bodies. I don't believe you need to do anything to the ARM body other than cut it and paint it.(nice choice by the way). It is made for the 150mm micro and the sc18 is about 146mm so it should fit fine. The front body mount normally mounts on the front of the servo, however the hs81mg doesn't have much frontal area to stick it on, soooo, heat the body mount, bend it at a 90 degree angle and mount it off the top of the servo. You could also drill a couple of holes in the front of the chassis and mount short body posts there. Your shopping list looks great! I'm envious! You can also get a motor plate from BRP to put a speed300 motor in this car for incredible speed(but I think you mentioned that earlier). With some mods to the motor plate, it's also possible to put an orion elite mod motor in. These motors don't quite have the rpm's of the 300, but they have HUGE amounts of torque and brakes. Gear them up to get the speed and you still get great punch out of the corners, a cool running motor and good run time. Have fun!

[RAFster]

Nil came up with an idea for the front end that works well. Instead of a single mount point that puts any load on the front servo mounting you may want to use the screws that attach the front suspension plate to the body and use another pair of the rear body mount posts. You would need to use 1/2 inch long #4-40 flat head screws...

I end up hitting the boards/pipe too often and end up redoing the servo mount a few times every weekend racing. A metal strap from each of these mounting screws, using a metal nut can work or a set of used brush eyelets and leads clipping behind the brush and soldering a strong piece of wire to go over the servo to form the a wire hold down or reinforcement.

Also, if you are using a HS-81MG you will want to shim below it for clearance for the servo saver. The case is so small that you don't have enough clearance for the bottom of the servo saver to not hit the chassis plate. A small square the size of the servo is sufficent and you can use double face tape to sandwich it to the servo. The servo tape Bud includes in the kit is very good stuff.

RAFster
David

[tinyrc]

Originally posted by ZenFlea
Wow guys, this thread has certainly brought out the experts.

ZenFlea, as you can see, even Bud himself is in on this thread! That's another great reason to favor the SC18 over the SP. The ABC products are controlled in the US by Horizon Hobbies who are quite evil. You won't get much support with the ABCs, but by posting in the Forums here you can get support from the SC18's designer himself! :D