RealTracks Traction Tests

[schmenzer]

I wanted a baseline for times running my Kyosho dNaNos on the stock RealTracks TrackPack 20 setup before I try an idea I have to get more traction on the race surface. I have been trying to figure out what track surface I am going to use at Mini Speedway for the dNaNos and the new FlatTrack version of the RealTracks is in the running especially if my traction increasing idea works.

So, I shot a couple of minutes of video to watch the cars and to time the laps. The video shows just how touchy the cars are when I get on the power a little too much. It is a hair-trigger type thing. I think some folks would like the fairly realistic way the cars lose traction but I really want to explore the speed of the dNaNos a bit more so I will be attempting to increase the traction of the RealTracks surface. My goal is to simulate the feeling I get running my Mini-Zs on the 50cm RCP track.

When I originally got the TrackPack 20 almost a year ago I was running Epoch cars and the traction of the RealTracks surface was decent for the performance offered by my stock Epochs. However, when I got my first dNaNo it was clear that the new Mini Kyosho had a ton more power than could be put down effectively on the RealTracks race surface.

When running my Porsche 917K on stock RealTrack it is hard to put the power down even with the KT-18 transmitter in training mode to tame the power delivery. Average laps were about 6.1 seconds with a couple of 5.7 second laps.

Running my Mazda 787B with the KO Propo EX1-UR turned down to 24% on the throttle I was a bit less consistent for this test but the fastest laps were 5.5 seconds with an average right around 6.1 seconds as well.

Video of the dNaNo Porsche 917K (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e128YwGLegw)

Video of the dNaNo Mazda 787B (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5diL0n1bAU)

On with the track surface modification in which I apply thinned Household Goop to the track surface! Viva la traction!

[RCP-Tracks, Inc]

I spent a good portion of last year testing a variety of plastic and hard surfaces specifically for the upcoming release of the dNaNo. I used a variety of home brew traction compounds ranging from orange juice to apple cider. I poured the contents into a spray bottle and lightly coated the surface. This process yielded great temporary grip for the small scale RC cars, but it had it's major downfall.

Applying the traction compound to the track allowed the tires to become like magnets. The tires became incredibly sticky and would pick up any dust, hair or dirt from the track, just in a few laps. Even the slightest bit of dirt or hair stuck to a dNaNo tire would cause the car to vibrate dramatically. It was so bad, you would need to pick up the car and clean the tires with water or some other substance. After just a few more laps, the car would then become un-drivable again, until cleaning of the tires was completed. The added traction compound would also build up in the small tiny axles and cause the front tires to not spin freely. With the small dNaNo, just the slightest bit of resistance on the front wheels would make the car undriveable in the turns.

Although the traction compound did give the cars great grip, it was short lived after a few laps of the car picking up the dirt and dust. If you can find something that would become sticky on the plastic track, but would not build up on the tires and axles, that would be your best.

[schmenzer]

Look no further for the "Magic Mix" this is not a temporary compound. It is as permanent as it gets. I have been using the same basic mixture in RC airplane applications for years. If fact, it is so tough that in mid-airs the underlying structure breaks while the Goop mixture holds the outer skin together. If you are the "experimenting" type don't over look this.

Greg

[schmenzer]

I thought I'd also mention that in over 1000 laps on this new surface with my dNaNos they have NOT picked up a speck of dirt. They are as clean as when they came out of the box.

FYI, I Love RCP track too. I have over 6-Wide L's worth at the shop and while I really like it for Mini-Zs it does create some dust that, over time, needs cleaning on the dNaNos.

Don't even get me started on carpet!

[schmenzer]

As I mentioned in a preiously I want to improve the traction of my RealTracks race track to better suit the power of my dNaNos. I feel the stock surface, while great for low power cars like the Epoch, is too slippery for the dNaNo.

For the new surface I am going to use thinned Household Goop (Plumber's Goop is the same thing as far as I can tell so get which ever is cheaper). I use Toluene to thin the Goop to about Maple Syrup consistency. It takes a while to mix and I let the mixture sit for a while between mixings so the Goop will dissolve in the Toluene. BTW, this is a thing you want to do either outside or in a place with good ventilation. If you do it at home and are married, prepare for a confrontation! The fumes are not something you want to huff! Probably a good idea to wear gloves too.

Before I applied the Goop mixture I used Alcohol to clean the RealTracks tiles. Toluene is a good solvent but it does affect the RealTracks plastic if it is allowed to pool and rubbed. It does not immediately dissolve the surface but to be safe I am only using it in the final application of the Goop. I suspect that the Toluene would also remove any painted stripes. Even the Alcohol removed a little.

After the Alcohol dried I used blue painter's tape to mask off the connecting tabs so assembling the track would still be easy.

I used a small foam roller to spread a thin but even coat of mixed material on the top of the RealTracks surface and worked the roller enough to get some small bubbles in the Goop mixture and then set the track piece aside to dry. BTW, I did try applying the mixture on the underside of the track to check compatibility and was pleased with the result so I went ahead and applied it to the actual running surface.

One tube of Goop and about 4 or 5 ounces of Toluene did a dozen RealTacks tiles. I ended up using almost two tubes total and about 7 ounces of Toluene for the entire RealTracks TrackPack 20 set.

After I had all the track parts coated I left them in the shop overnight. The Goop mixture actually dries to the touch on about an hour but the solvent takes longer to totally dissolve and the associated odor is persistent as well!

I guess I should add a disclaimer here: This mod is not reversible. From my tests it does not ruin the track but you will not be able to remove the Goop once it is applied. Except for the added traction you will hardly notice it is on the track.

On with the driving. Check out the next article as I discover if all this rig-a-ma-role was worth it.

[schmenzer]

First of the results are GREAT! The surface has more traction without being silly sticky.

Test car dNaNo Mazda 787B. This car is set up with my EX-1UR radio and is a bit easier to control than a dNaNo running with the stock KT-18. So, how did the Mazda fair? In the previous test on a stock RealTracks surface the Mazda was touchy even with the stickiest tires I could put on the back. The car, even at 24% on the throttle would easily break loose and swap ends. The best lap I ran was 5.7 seconds and the average lap was about 6.1 seconds. Not bad but I wanted more.

After the track prep as outlined here the lap times were down to an average of about 4.3 seconds with a fast lap of 4.0 seconds. Even the slowest lap with a couple of wall scrapes was 5.1 seconds, over a half second faster that the fastest lap before the track mod. That is super! In addition the car was more predictable and consistent.

I also switched the front tires on the Mazda back from the softer versions I had been running to the stock Mazda front tire which is a #50 and it seems to work well. I think I'll try a #40 to see if I can balance the car a bit more. There is a little tendency for the back to come out under power still but I have increased the throttle to 38% from 24% so there is quite a bit more power there.

Video of the Mazda 787B on the modified RealTracks surface. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmZBLLf0tbw)

Test car dNaNo Porsche 917K. This car is newer than the Mazda and I am using the stock KT-18 transmitter running in training mode to tame the throttle. I am also running stock tires on this car. On the un-modified track surface even the training mode was more than enough to break the tires loose and do donuts.

The results with the Porsche are even more impressive to me. Maybe because I drove this car second and was learning the new, grippier track more I was able to better the Mazda times by a good margin. Maybe the Porsche is just set up better for this track. Anyway, the average lap time, even with a few more wall biffs than with the Mazda was 4.2 seconds. and there were two laps at 3.8 seconds. Yeah!

Video of the Porsche 917K on the modified RealTracks surface. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXbKr09LNY)

So the quest to find more traction out of the RealTracks surface is an unqualified success!

As for durability only time will tell but after over 1000 laps the surface is perfect. The Goop mixture has amazing grip and, on the test patch on the underside of the track. I could not get it off without using a razor and actually scraping the plastic of the track.

[arch2b]

very interesting project you have going. i will be following this closely :)

i also happen to have some realtracks and my mini-z seems to do ok on the very small portion i have laid on on the floor. i ran a stock dnano on this same small portion which also did ok. i agree that anything with some high speed will require more grip from either tires and or track.

what tires were you using for these test? testing tire combinations is going to be much cheaper and easier than modifying the track surface.

[schmenzer]

Arch,

Actually, with the surface now modified, the stock tires seem to do really well. I may go slightly softer on the Mazda, from a 50 to a 40, but the Porsche is dead on great handling.

For what it is worth this entire modification to all 20 track pieces has cost me about 3 hours of time and $15 in materials. Frankly, I could never go back to the stock surface again.

[RCP-Tracks, Inc]

Looks great. You may want to try a foam tire on the stock surface. I don't know anyone who makes one for the dNaNo just yet, but it should give you the best results against the plastic surface.

[arch2b]

yep, i was going to suggest foam tires as well.

i'm glad you found a treatment that works and that you are happy with. as for others, i would suggest testing tire changes before altering the track surface permanently.

what would be an interesting twist on your finding would be to only modify the inside track line in portions to give added traction to portions of the track where it's needed most and give a very realistic look. if you have any left over tiles, i would suggest trying that. i'd be very interested to see it in pictures too.

[schmenzer]

yep, i was going to suggest foam tires as well.

what would be an interesting twist on your finding would be to only modify the inside track line in portions to give added traction to portions of the track where it's needed most and give a very realistic look. if you have any left over tiles, i would suggest trying that. i'd be very interested to see it in pictures too.



>> I'd love to test foam too. I wonder if slot car tires could be modded at least to test. Me thinks a trip to ebay may be in order.

>> Yeah! I actually thought of applying the Goop to the racing line too. If it has better traction that would be sweet. If I can figure out a way to consistently feather the application so the traction drop is not abrupt, that would be really cool. Got some flat track coming. If I can think of a way to do it I may try it.

[RealTracks]

Again, great job Greg, innovative, and thinking outside the box. I agree about the dNaNo’s speed. RealTracks was originally designed for the Epoch’s. With the Epochs tires and speed the surface met our design objectives. After all, RealTracks was designed to offer a scale driving experience and to slow things down so the racing line became import for the average driver with average hand eye coordination. Now with the performance of the dNaNo and the fact that RealTracks is appealing to more traditional and experienced RC racers we have to redefine that design objective to provide a surface and tire combination that provides greater traction. We are getting ready to conduct comprehensive tire and set-up testing for the dNaNos and Mini-Zs. Just as you said Arch2B, our goal is to provide the increased traction through tire composition. Tire contact patch becomes more critical with RealTracks hard surface than it does with traditional foam and carpet tracks. Tire development has focused and progressed very well for foam and carpet tracks. Since RealTracks surface is similar to slot car track, our testing is initially focusing on those particular compounds. We will get the COTS and prototype tires out for testing just as we did during track development. Thanks again Greg for your hard work and sharing it with us. Even though most RealTracks users are new to RC racing please feel free to share your thoughts and opinions with us here.

Miles

[arch2b]

i'll be running full out racing tests in 2 week. having not run slot cars in about 25 years, what are the shore numbers your looking at? this will help us properly select tires for both mini-z and well, i don't have any dnano tires to test other than stock.

i'd rather focus on tire selection first before playing with surface treatments.

[RealTracks]

Arch,
We are just starting this research and are still gathering resources and moding some rims to accept some standard 1/24th and 1/43rd slot tires. I can’t really make a recommendation from the limited foam tire testing I have done so far. The shore numbers run like the degree numbers for the RC tires if you recall. I don't want to discount urethane and silicone yet. We use roller blade wheels to power feed raw material in the manufacture of RealTracks and it grips really well. Did you get that skid pad video with the timing system?

[RealTracks]

Greg got me curious about lap times. I pulled out some 16” Flat Track and set up his same layout. I am an average driver. The dNaNo tires are stock. Now to be fair, Flat Track is 1.5” wider than the standard track. I was able to pull consistent 4.2’s with a 3.79 best. I am running the Mazda with the mid motor. My car and tires appear to handle completely different than yours. I will try and take some video and get it up tonight with the timer in the shot. My tires are well worn and I am wondering if that affects performance. I did have a few European customers who initially reported they thought the surface was slick and both responded a few days later that the cars were “gripping up really well now”. I have some more dnano tires on the way and I am anxious to compare the profiles. I seem to recall they were very rounded when new.

Here is a quick skid pad test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4CyTKoLICI

[-J-]

What is this 'Skid Pad'? Is it a lap timer and software?

[arch2b]

skid pad? timing system?

[MROSS 1]

One thing to try is PLASTI DIP by Performix. It is used to, you guessed it, to give extra grip for hand tools. It comes in a spray can and in a paint form. The best is the Spray version for tracks like Realtracks. We tried both the paint and spray versions on a track that we had laser cut back a few years ago to see if we could get better grip when racing the Epochs. We had a lot of blanks from frames we were cutting for a rear window in trucks that was removable and we had all this Black pastic with a mirror finish laying around and thought lets laser cut some track out of it..

The problem at the time was when we tried to race the Epochs on it it was like driving on ice. So we tried like I have read here just about everything to put grip down when we came across this PLASTI DIP in Home Depot. Had we tried The Realtracks plastic which has a Hair sill finish we might not have had to use the PLASTI DIP. Anyway after trying this stuff oh my god.. good by grip problem and I mean by by. The Epochs if you tried to turn to hard would filp over right now! Now the Realtracks has as I mentioned a hair sill finish and I personally get plenty of grip with my dNaNos and I did not try putting on the PLASTI DIP on the Realtrack surface. This track is the 16-inch 24pc set.

That said I have two dNaNo's the Porsche 962 C LH and the Mazda 787B.
Now my two dNaNo's are stock in every way excepte for the tires and rims. When I recieved the cars, I thought as some of you may have, that the Auto Scale tire and rims could also be used on the dNaNo's. If your laughing at this point and are thinking what an dumb ass.. don't give up on me yet... and read on! I was able to convert the Auto Scale tires and rims on both of my dNaNo's and man what a blast to race on the Realtracks. I did not use the PLASTI DIP on this track because using the Auto Scale wheels did and does the trick to get grip! And I mean the cars fly! I can only guess how well the car would hold if I added the PLASTI DIP.

For grip it seems the more I drive the dNaNos' with the Auto Scale tires and rims the better the grip gets. The same is also ture with the stock tires on the dNaNo's after a while of driving on the Realtracks the cars seem to get better grip as the tires start to ware. The other thing I like about the Auto Scale tires is they to date anyway have not worn down and I've been racing them for almost a year now, on the Realtrack for about 3 months. I drive them just about every day.

The other advantage with the Auto Scale tires and rims in my humble opion is they look great and the car really drives great. I can also race the dNaNo's on my cement driveway. I mean it is a blast there as well. Try the stock dNaNo foam tires on any cement and good by tires. The conversion of the Auto Scale tires and rims is not real easy yet it's not impossible either. Yet in the end it was well worth the effort and you will ask yourself as I have a hundred times since what the H was KYOSHO thinking? My only guess is they assume you are only going to race on a carpet or foam track.

I have four RCP tracks and if anyone wants to buy them let me know because in terms of how the Realtracks look, the time it takes to set up and the way the cars rip around on it, I can't ever see myself using the RCP tracks again. If you want to convert your dNaNo let me know and I will do the best I can to help. To date I have only tried to convert the 787B and the 962 C LH. Yet I'm sure I could convert any of the dNaNo's now. email me @ mike_ross_558@hotmail.com if converting your Auto Scale tires and rims from your dNaNo has any interest to you.

The last thing I will say is I personally like to drive my cars to the point of having the cars slide a little around the turns. Yet I know like everything in our hobby that everyone has their own thoughts as to what is good grip and what is not good grip. Lap times being the great divider and I suppose the Hallmark of this thread. So if its zero slide and great grip your looking for on your Realtracks, racing either the Epochs or the dNaNo's, try this PLASTI DIP and you may well come away one happy camper regardless of which tires you run or which car for that matter. Or do the conversion if its the dNaNo's you race, either way you will end up loving that realtracks and those dNaNo's and Epochs all the more!

[arch2b]

good read, thanks for sharing :)

could you please post a description on how to convert the asc wheels/tires in the parts subforum?

i've used plasti-sip for years to insulate rc antenna's and other things. i didn't know it came in a spray can.

this could be used in the manner we were talking about earlier to coat racing lines in turns. i have to go to the home depot soon anyway and i'll pick up a can if i find it.

[RealTracks]

After getting all of your emails and speaking with you Mike I was wondering when you were going to share with the masses. I only had a few minutes this morning to shoot some video. I had to do it with a digital camera because my computer with firewire is down. They are not the smoothest of laps but a few good lap times. Around 4.2’s average with a best of just under 3.7. You should be able to see each lap time in the video. Next time I will put a few more sections of removable guard rail where I occasional cut some corners. My KT-18 is set up with the throttle all the way back to the multi beep stop and 3 beeps from solid left and right travel. This allows me to apply full throttle to the stops coming off turn 7, followed by a quick lift and back on entering turn 8. Forget the training mode. Make the max throttle and lock to lock travel for each race course. Greg this should take care of the hair trigger you mentioned. I like the gradual power curve to full power that the KT-18 puts in. It’s almost like electronic limited slip. With the proper tire combinations I really don’t feel that any coatings will be required. Although I do like the thought of adding it to the racing line. I am an average to crappy driver and more limited by my skill than the traction and handling of the car on the track. I forgot how much fun a small set-up is and how quick it goes down. I think some you tube HFAY may be in order. Or since that’s already taken how about “RealTracks Time Trials”. We have been moving slow with the timing system. It’s been 99 percent done for awhile. We were trying to get the online portion complete before the release. I am thinking of adding that portion later and we could just use the “Video Recording” or “Skid Pad” screens with the big numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDVUqyGsq-Y

[arch2b]

i look forward to seeing the timing system. it sounds and looks very interesting.

have you tried some of these surface treatments?

[RealTracks]

Arch,
No I have not tried them. When I get some time I am going to try both methods on the racing line for fun. I am going to get a few macro close ups from the bottom of of my tires, if you have minute could do the same and email it to me. My mazda was a U.S. purchse and I am wondering if export or later production got different tires. That might explain the varying performance. I would like to compare the profiles.

[arch2b]

sure thing.

i'm uploading video files of my first couple runs on the 34 pack track right now ;)

[arch2b]

as promised, HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4JuH6lIGN0) is the first video of my first test drive with a stock mini-z on my 34 pack 24" tile RealTracks. as you'll see the batteries died on me toward the end.

i was very surprised that the mini-z behaved almost exactly as it does on my RCP mini-96. there is a little bit more push in the runs under power but that is was expected. i happen to have the standard RCP tire setup for a mini-z which is Kyosho 20 front and 30 rear. this, in my opinion is very good starting point for a stock mini-z. anything faster will need some adjustments. maybe 20 fronts...

[arch2b]

HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T456ngMlVSk) is some video with fresh batteries. please excuse the wild driving. this was the first time with my mini-z on a track without rails so there is added responsibility to keep the car on the track.

again, this common RCP tire setup did very well for the stock mini-z. i would advise that no more than 2 be on the track at the same time unless your racing with experienced drivers where 3 would be ok. passing skills and traffic avoidance skills are crucial here.

[RealTracks]

I actually like the tile floor. It looks like Miller Motor Sports Park in UT during the summer. Great video and I liked the multi-tasking conversation with your son. I think we can all relate to that. I also liked the way the car spun when you got wide and put 2 tires in the tile. I am glad to hear your standard tire set-up for RCP performed well. Did you run tape over them to remove the dust before the test? When you get some time if you could take another picture of that gap with the mini z tire straddling it, or include a ruler from above. It looked really wide and there is no way to judge in the picture. The Gap should be a max of 1/32nd and is usually 1/64th. That has not changed with the production units as that component was made on production tooling. The gap is for ease of asm, as well as taking into account the worse case environmental conditions and our vertical sheer. That’s while it will vary from no gap to 1/32”. What you should not have is any vertical change in height between sections. It is possible on the outer most 1.5 in of the track to be raised if there is an object under the section that is lifted for disassembly. Again the video looked great and I think when your club races on it in a few weeks that will provide some of the best feedback and data.

[arch2b]

nah, i don't waste tape cleaning tires. i just rub them on my shirt like most kids do to clean things off :) they were rather clean though as i had just finished some laps on the rcp track. i have used tape to great success many times. i even had an rcp tile pit lane that had removeable packing tape roll off area so you could pit the car and simply drive over the tape section. worked great. for the most part, unless i'm in a serious race, i don't bother with cleaning much. i ran nearly the intire season 6 of HFAY without cleaning my car. needless to say it was filthy. i do change tires every couple months so i try to clean then.

yep, the tile is a slippery surface. once you get more than 1 tire off the track, you can easily loose it.

i have the batteries charging again and as soon as they are done i'll get more pictures. the gap was rather small in my opinion. the extreme close up may make it look larger than it really is.

multitasking is putting a good spin it:p it's often difficult to concentrate with 2 kids running around, doing other things and or trying to watch what they are doing at the same time.

[arch2b]

here is a picture of that same gap.
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1334/medium/IMG_12091.JPG

i actually found a couple others since i took the time to look over them all. this one in particular was even wider
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1334/medium/IMG_1210.JPG

it may appear misleading large due to the tapered edge finish, better seen in this image. this causes more of a gap than the 1/32" clean gap. you can see how the finished surface is cut back from the tile edge.
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1334/medium/IMG_12111.JPG

these were the minority occurences. a vast majority of the tile connections looked just like this.
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1334/medium/IMG_12121.JPG

i will clarify this with the statement that neither caused any bump, miscue or anything else in use.

[schmenzer]

Greg got me curious about lap times. I pulled out some 16” Flat Track and set up his same layout. I am an average driver. The dNaNo tires are stock. Now to be fair, Flat Track is 1.5” wider than the standard track. I was able to pull consistent 4.2’s with a 3.79 best. I am running the Mazda with the mid motor. My car and tires appear to handle completely different than yours. I will try and take some video and get it up tonight with the timer in the shot. My tires are well worn and I am wondering if that affects performance. I did have a few European customers who initially reported they thought the surface was slick and both responded a few days later that the cars were “gripping up really well now”. I have some more dnano tires on the way and I am anxious to compare the profiles. I seem to recall they were very rounded when new.

Here is a quick skid pad test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4CyTKoLICI

I've had the TrackPack 20 since I first heard it was available. So a year or so??? Did anything change since the first batches? I have run many thousands of laps on the track with Epochs and later with the dNaNos. I've wiped the track down with damp cloths to keep dust off but the surface always seemed very slick. I am most likely an above average driver. I have had top times in the HFAY Time Trail comps plus have been driving RC Cars for over 20 years. I suspect, for some reason, my track may have been slipperier than the norm. When I get the new track from you I'll be able to compare the grip to what I remember from the old track.

Greg

[RealTracks]

We now specify the exact facility and tooling the raw materials are manufactured on. Our first shipment of raw material was slightly different than what we originally tested. I think some units may have shipped that came from the wrong facility, but I can't confirm either way. It was a very subtle difference but noticeable. I checked and it looks like your Track Pack 20 was the 6th set shipped after the release date. The dNaNo's were not out then so I don't have any data on their performance. The epoch performance was only marginally different. However it may be exacerbated by the dnano's increased performance. Your new Track Pack will tell all.

[arch2b]

speed will always play a huge factor in track performance. the faster you go the more traction becomes an issue.
to top it off, the dnano does not weight much at all and even stock, it quite fast.

[schmenzer]

Miles,

Very good. I look forward to the new batch. I am curious to see what, if any, difference there is. I am also curious what the difference is between running on the flat track and the track with walls will be. The inside corner is so unforgiving on the original that I wouldn't be surprised if the lap times were .5 to 1 second faster on the flat track.

Also, I redid the settings on the KT-18 as you outlined. I took it off training mode and limited the throttle with the electronics in the radio. Much smoother power delivery. I like it! Also now down to consistent 3.4s and had a couple of 3.2 laps with the 917K.

Greg


We now specify the exact facility and tooling the raw materials are manufactured on. Our first shipment of raw material was slightly different than what we originally tested. I think some units may have shipped that came from the wrong facility, but I can't confirm either way. It was a very subtle difference but noticeable. I checked and it looks like your Track Pack 20 was the 6th set shipped after the release date. The dNaNo's were not out then so I don't have any data on their performance. The epoch performance was only marginally different. However it may be exacerbated by the dnano's increased performance. Your new Track Pack will tell all.

[RealTracks]

Greg,
Glad to hear the adjustments worked out for you. If you don't have a English manual Its easy to overlook. Most people are unaware of it when they email me. The training mode is a waste of time and the flashing light is worse than water boarding. As far as those inside corners go, most people put some foam tape on that inside corner. Without it, I cringed every time I would hit it. I am sure you will be sub 3.0 with the flat track. I will throw some foam tape in with your next order. The difference in the track was was mostly aesthetic. It was very shiny and the surface texture was slightly less pronounced. I would be surprised if that was it though. Anyway we will know soon enough. I will look for a old piece and email you a picture of it if you are curious.

[MROSS 1]

good read, thanks for sharing :)

could you please post a description on how to convert the asc wheels/tires in the parts subforum?

i've used plasti-sip for years to insulate rc antenna's and other things. i didn't know it came in a spray can.

this could be used in the manner we were talking about earlier to coat racing lines in turns. i have to go to the home depot soon anyway and i'll pick up a can if i find it.
Hello arch2b, Thank you for your comment. Yea, I never it seems have time to get in here and post, yet I will try and find the time. So please forgive me for taking so long to get back. Yes I will post pics of the dNaNo's I converted to use the Auto Scale tires and rims. I have a video of the cars (Racing) I'm using that word in it's most basic term for watching some of your videos and others racing their dNaNo's I can't claim to even that. Yet it shows what can be done and who knows some of you might want to try it. Anyway thanks for the nice comment. And try that Plasti-Dip it 100% really works for the Epoch's and when I get some stock rims and tires in for the dNaNo's I will spray down the Realtrack and post the results.

[mugler]

I will spray down the Realtrack and post the results.

That will be really nice info to have since the goop method is too involved compared to just spraying.

[run4fun]

I have a large set of realtracks I bought for my dnano. I was disappointed with the traction when I first used it. It was good practice though, and I used a bit. But, then I got bored with it and put it away.

Then, I had occasion to use it again and I had an idea! I used the same approach to traction we use in 10th scale outdoor racing... ROOTBEER!

You really need to try this. Traction goes through the roof! In fact, you don't want to lay it down heavy at all. All you need to do is wet a cloth with the rootbeer and wipe the track down. A light film is all you want. Wait for it to dry. If you do it right, you will find it barely, barely feels sticky, or not at all. If it feels sticky, use a damp (water) cloth and thin it out. If it feels sticky, the car will feel like it's on velcro, too much traction... really!

Now, clean your tires and try it out. It RIPS. Go get the x-speed you can use that now!!!

The light coating will last days. You may notice the traction fading after an hour or so of running. Clean your tires with damp (water) cloth and let them dry. The traction comes right back. I guess the sugar on sugar is not good. The rubber seems to love the sugar! Keep the tires clean and have fun.

[MrNanoTrax]

dude... no track should need any home remedy cooked up after a couple shots of aged whiskey to get decent traction. if i can't get decent traction on a home track by changing to another compound immediately available at my LHS, why would i buy the joint? RCP has it on lock, hands down.... sorry RealTracks, but ya gotta come again if you want to seriously compete for the dNaNo market. JMHO

[run4fun]

dude... no track should need any home remedy cooked up after a couple shots of aged whiskey to get decent traction. if i can't get decent traction on a home track by changing to another compound immediately available at my LHS, why would i buy the joint? RCP has it on lock, hands down.... sorry RealTracks, but ya gotta come again if you want to seriously compete for the dNaNo market. JMHO

You sound like an ad for RCP! Are you selling it?

I have enough RCP , large and small tiles to cover a football stadium. But, it's far too bumpy because of the seams to be any good with Dnano. Maybe your's is OK. But I already bought a mile of it - and I won't buy another piece myself. The thickness tolerance on that stuff is too wacky for Dnano. By the way it's all for sale, so let me know if you need it and I'll send it right over!

I have run Dnano on MUCH better surfaces and the future is not foam!

I know you haven't tried other surfaces, or you would understand the problems with foam a) the surface thickness tolerance with tiles, and b) the drive/feel of foam is lame. If you've run hot on carpet or harder surfaces you would understand this.

[run4fun]

dude... no track should need any home remedy cooked up after a couple shots of aged whiskey to get decent traction. if i can't get decent traction on a home track by changing to another compound immediately available at my LHS, why would i buy the joint? RCP has it on lock, hands down.... sorry RealTracks, but ya gotta come again if you want to seriously compete for the dNaNo market. JMHO

And, my name is NOT dude!

[arch2b]

lets not get too worked up. it's his opinion and he's entitled to it and free to share it. you can offer a rebuttle however we need not take this in a direction that will only lead to waster forum space.

i myself have had miles of rcp track as well an i honestly don't find the tile seams distracting at all. there are the odd tiles where tile thickness is fractionally different but it's certainly not enough to 'not' use it.

i have realtracks as well and while it's very flat and honestly fun to drive on, stock tires make it an exercises in frustration unless you ant to simply creap and crawl around the track. there are tile gaps in realtracks as well. i've actually documented mine on this forum in discussions with realtracks. i honestly think this can be solved by simply trying various tire compound combinations which i have not been able to do yet.

i've never run on carpet but i can't say i've had any compelling reason to do so.

no one surface is perfect, ask lorne, he's tested almost all of them.

[run4fun]

lets not get too worked up. it's his opinion and he's entitled to it and free to share it. you can offer a rebuttle however we need not take this in a direction that will only lead to waster forum space.

i myself have had miles of rcp track as well an i honestly don't find the tile seams distracting at all. there are the odd tiles where tile thickness is fractionally different but it's certainly not enough to 'not' use it.

i have realtracks as well and while it's very flat and honestly fun to drive on, stock tires make it an exercises in frustration unless you ant to simply creap and crawl around the track. there are tile gaps in realtracks as well. i've actually documented mine on this forum in discussions with realtracks. i honestly think this can be solved by simply trying various tire compound combinations which i have not been able to do yet.

i've never run on carpet but i can't say i've had any compelling reason to do so.

no one surface is perfect, ask lorne, he's tested almost all of them.

I respect his opinion. DUDE is a horse. I don't think it's the way to start an opinion without showing pretty serious disrespect for my opinion. I don't care about the space. Not anymore. I see how it is here. LOL

"dude... no track should need any home remedy cooked up"

Like 1) foam 12th scale traction compounds used at all carpet racing venues.
Like 2) foam 10th scale traction compounds used at all carpet racing venues.
Like 3) sugar water applied on asphault used at all good 10th scale on-road racing venues.
Like 4) VHT applied on asphault at all good Nitro racing venues 10th and 8th scale.
In fact, I don't think any Worlds event has been held.. maybe ever, without the use of surface and/or tire traction compounds.

Dnano has been out for just a short while, and I don't think you guys should assume Mini-Z lore will be the right answer for Dnano surface/tires. In fact, I know some of the fastest and earliest adopters of mini-z used oil on their tires, which works great, but really causes mayhem for the owner of the RCP. I know of venues where the RCP has become... like really lousy due to contamination... caused by factors having nothing to do with any application of traction compounds. Just dust, sun and wear and tear.

Dnano is much more fun, and drives more like an 8th or 10th scale model, when on a smooth surface. The smoother the better. Faster rolling and smoother weight transfer works wonders for the model. If you have not tried it on something better than RCP, you are really missing out. I'm not here to bash RCP. But, it has it's limitations where dnano is concerned... even Mini Z IMO. The feel of too much traction is not much better than that of too little. In the case of RCP, inconstant traction and surface irregularities are greatly enhanced with Dnano. AND, carpet is better for Mini Z as well IMO. Try RCMMS for a week or so, and then go back to your PCP!

Maybe you guys should be a little more open minded and not smoke so much o'that PCP.. er ah I mean RCP.

[MrNanoTrax]

nope... don't sell RCP and don't plan to. i build the tracks in our shop and the rubber/foam/pvc is tested and proven to give a closer to real experience with tire compounds and car handling. i'm not only referring to their previous design, i'm also referring to the extensive investment they r making in building a track specific to the needs of dNaNo. btw, "dude" is a term of endearment where i come from :D

[run4fun]

nope... don't sell RCP and don't plan to. i build the tracks in our shop and the rubber/foam/pvc is tested and proven to give a closer to real experience with tire compounds and car handling. i'm not only referring to their previous design, i'm also referring to the extensive investment they r making in building a track specific to the needs of dNaNo. btw, "dude" is a term of endearment where i come from :D

OK dude. I accept that. I just think you are a bit arrogant to claim "proof" and to speak like the lord on this. I DO know of your place. I DO respect your opinion, as just that. But, you have only "proven" to me that you don't respect mine. That's all.

BYE

PS: I don't drink whiskey. Look at what you wrote!

[MrNanoTrax]

quick note: JMHO = Just My Humble Opinion.... carry on ;)

[run4fun]

quick note: JMHO = Just My Humble Opinion.... carry on ;)

And what is the acronym for "your arrogance bleeds through your writing", and "the cheezy acronym in closing is like saying it with a smile"

Some simple apology for a bleeding rude introduction would be a much better response. But, I would never expect that on an RC board. Or, where you are from it's endearing to insult someone by calling them a drunken fool?

[lornecherry]

I will have much to say on various track surfaces once I finish testing, but here are some more general observations from the test track surfaces so far:

EVA foam and its many formulations remains one of my favorites. Just keep it static-free by washing gently with water on occasion. Ozite carpet has mid-traction and a great "racing" feel (but don't use it for the d'nano - see below).

I have not tested plastic, but I can assure you there is a way to make almost any surface, including plastic, perform very well, given the proper tires, grain in the track, and if you like, track or tire "sauce".

For example, there is a permanent rubber 'spray' that I experimented with, with good results ... it can easily be applied to almost any less-than-ideal surface to increase traction. Another member liked Plastidip on the Realtracks surface, and I'm inclined to favour that type of traction "booster" because it is not an overly sticky dirt-magnet like sugar-water, rootbeer or tire sauce.

The only surfaces that are not suitable are those that are fiborous, so no carpet, or anything that is a static/dirt/hair magnet. (The jury is out on the high-end felt; I've had mixed results).

Just as there is no one perfect car for everyone (although a Ferrari 355 I once drove came damn close) ...there is no one perfect track surface. I'm enthusiastic about a surface one day, and "nah" the next day because humidity, temperature and minute setup changes all effect the d'nano's tires and the track surface. And unless I've driven a few hundred laps with different cars, on different days, I'm can only conclude that I can't conclude.

So a little "sauce" on your track or tires is fine -- if it's fun and it doesn't gum-up the car, then OK.

My biggest concerns with any track surface that is too sticky is: 1) traction rolls coming off the main straight and 2) wherever the "sauce" is, so too will be hair, dust and other yucky stuff -- for a 1/10th -1/18th scale car that's not going to make or break the race -- but for the d'nano I would certainly be concerned. (A track surface's ability to deal with dust and hair has been one of the biggest hurdles in trying to engineer suitable surfaces.)

With different tires finally available for d'nano, the 'type' of running surface is becomming less important - you just need to find the right combinations of "tuning" -- h'mmm ... sounds like full-scale racing. And considering that RCP, HTUSA, Realtracks, and the surfaces I'm now working with are all very different, there appears to be a variety of suitable surfaces.

Just look at tennis ... good to watch on hard-court, grass or clay, Federer and Nadal find ways to on all the different surfaces, just as Schmacher did at completely different tracks years ago.
---
I can tell you what is being worked on with respect to track development by both myself and others is convenience, scale-like appearence, and a touch of realism. I, personally do not like too much grip on a track with the d'nano, as I found out with 1.0+ COF (coefficient of friction) rubber. It's just not realistic.

The more I drive, the more I realize that the most important "traction" upgrade after the prerequisite bearings/diff/tires is a new transmitter. The steering rates and loosy-goosy feel on the Perfex TX are awful ... I'm just not comfortable with that transmitter (although my kids like it). On a grippy track or with low degree (sticky) front tires, my 360 Modena darts around like the ShamWow pitchman on crack.
---
The d'nano is a very special car; the traction coefficeints, CG, and scale speed are worlds apart from the Mini-Z. Making the car fun to drive on an ongoing basis on a smallish 14x6 track is also challenging ... the biggest uprade you can make on any track, whether that be RCP, Realtracks or homebrew ...is...more track.

In conclusion; don't go too sticky or attract dust in any way, buy more track so the d'nano can stretch its legs, upgrade the car ... and if you have a KO Propo TX that you are running with your D'nano ... please let me know if that helps your handling before I plunk down a grand for a few of those. - Lorne

[run4fun]

Hi Lorne,
I like the work and information you have posted. I just want to add that I only logged on here to share something I found to be "surprisingly" successful, and after reading through many posts on tracks and traction nobody mentioned it. It was only to let people know I have tried it and it works very well. If you have not tried it on Realtracks, you really should!

I think the comments on being sticky, attracting ants and attracting crap on the cars, indicates lack of experience. I don't really care if you want to try it or not. But, if you haven't tried it, don't speculate. When applied correctly, the track is dry and not tacky to feel at all. It does not attract dust and takes the same effort to apply and maintain as dusting the track with a damp cloth. I was really amazed myself at how well it worked. Otherwise, I would NEVER bother making a post to a site like this. And, I'm sorry I did. I hope nobody here tries it, because they don't deserve it. JKHFWI

JKHFWI = just kidding have fun with it!

[lornecherry]

I have tried all sorts of traction additives, but not root beer or any other soft drink on plastic, per se. I will give it a try on some slot car track I have, although it's probably different plastic than your Realtracks.

I have tried sugar water (an old trick if you want to run on a concrete basement floor) and other home-brew concoctions, but never took any of that too seriously, because it is frowned upon in Mini-Z racing and all of the surfaces that I've delt with had enough traction anyway, or if they didn't, foam tires quickly solved the problem.
--
But, if your 'recipe' lasts a week (or let's say a 500+ laps) and is indeed not a sticky mess as I suspected in my earlier post -- then it's certainly worth looking at seriously; especially if Kyosho does indeed release their all-plastic track.

(Could you share the brand of root beer, since there may be variance on different soft drinks.)

Of course if this is for real as you suggest, and it gains acceptance some how, be prepared to be the brunt of some very sharp humour barbs, like:
if I use diet root beer, will I shed some excess time off my laps? How about if I split a two-four of real beer, half for me and half for my track? :D

And don't tell Kyosho, they will surely re-label the stuff and charge $24 a bottle.
---
Yes, I agree -- I shouldn't discount or condone it until I've tried your exact recipe. And I am guilty of my own rule of not commenting unless having had direct experience. Perhaps because I'm so paranoid of constantly cleaning front ends on these little cars and because I spent the better part of 6 hours tonight trying to cut impossible-to-cut-straight rubber for a track infield.

[run4fun]

"Could you share the brand of root beer, since there may be variance on different soft drinks"?

I could think you are scoffing at me, but that would be my problem and paranoia!

When I started racing RC a friend of mine mentioned that "serious" guys spray soda pop on the parking lot before racing. HA! HA! HA! I laughed at him and said yah! VERY SERIOUS GUYS hahhahaaah! I can picture them now running around the parking lot shaking a Coke and spaying out a little patch... very funny!

Then, after a while, I found myself in the garage (when my slot adapted FOAM tires on my mini-z were just not cutting it on the shiny concrete surface) spraying it down... heaven forbid. Eventually I came to appreciate those dedicated model racing addicts, running around shaking and spraying 2 liter soda bottles, early in the morning hours after setting up boards or "track rails" or whatever we called those lousy things that launched cars across the track into oncoming traffic, or... yes FIRE HOSE!

I was still laughing a bit when they told me they preferred Mug brand rootbeer, because it has more sugar. I used it because it's what they had in the lobby of the hotel. I doubt it matters much, but I'll keep using it anyway.LOL.

[MrNanoTrax]

the "whiskey" comment was in jest... relax bro, it IS just a web forum. glad all your home remedies work for ya. enjoy your dnano.... thats what its all about :D

[RealTracks]

I have not been able to dedicate any time to RC for the past few months but I did want to post some initial test results of Atomic, PN, and Kyosho tires with RealTracks. Thanks Lorne for taking it down a notch and bringing the thread back into focus. The reason we go to any forum is for an open exchange of ideas and experiences. Forums can assist us in making an informed decision on a course of action that is appropriate for our interest or desired end state. Because of that it is important we all try and base our opinions on our experiences, just as runforfun did.

1) He found RealTracks did not have enough traction for him
2) He tried a technique to improve traction
3) His technique was successful for him
4) He shared it with others on the forum.

Marco expressed valid concerns about pest control and shared his previous experience with suger-water. Lornes informative and detailed post speak for themselves. I will be adding tire manufacturer and compound results to it as well. I feel one of the reasons we don’t hear from a larger cross section of people is because a new poster is reluctant to share something different because they probably do not want to deal with a post that deteriorates into something it should not be.
Thank you for posting runforfun.

O.K. I am stepping off my soap box.

To start, RealTracks and the dNaNo tires must be kept clean. Any amount off dust or debris on the tires will significantly affect performance. A damp cloth is all that is required to wipe Down RealTracks. A lightly moistened paper towel or cloth placed flat on a hard surface works well to clean the tires. If you are running FlatTracks it is important to keep your runoff area clean as well. We now use roll up plastic grass looking indoor outdoor carpet and it works great. It has no fibers, does not hold dust on the surface, and you pay a bigger penalty in speed when you go off the track. The stock front dNaNo tires are very hard, usually a 50. They help tame a twitchy low mass car. While the stock tires perform well on a small tight course http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDVUqyGsq-Y
,at higher speeds they will under steer on RealTracks when they get dusty. I have tested almost every tire combination of PN, Atomic, and Kyosho with the expected positive results. All of the basic principles apply to making the car handle neutral or slight under steer if you prefer. There is nothing new here. Every car will take a slightly different combo. PN racing offers the widest range of performance to dial in your car on RealTracks. Kyosho does not go soft enough on the front (50, 60) So they will under steer, Atomic does not go hard enough on the front,(25,35) so they will always over steer, even with the softest (08) on the rear. PN has the best offering with (45,55,65) on the fronts and (08,15,20) on the rear. With the Mazda 727 and Porsche 962 a PN 65 front and 08 rear is a good starting place. The car is almost neutral. Under rapid deceleration entering a corning it will slightly over steer with slight rear wheel hop. When accelerating out of corner it will slightly under steer, providing you do not break traction with to much throttle. The PN and atomic tires appear to have a similar more sticky composition as compared to the less sticky Kyoshos. I thought these sticky tires would be more susceptible to dust, but as it turned out after I intentionally got them dusty the performance was only marginally affected. The PN’s are similar to the kyosho with regard to thickness from wheel to the road surface as compared to the flatter and thinner Atomics. Be sure to wear your glasses when you put the PN's on the rim. I did not initially notice the relief cut in the inside of one edge of the PN tires that allows the tire to slide over the raised inner portion of the rim. They fit very nicely when properly installed. I will take some videos of some track times and skid pad testing in the future.

In conclusion while treating a track surface is certainly a viable alterative, I have confirmed what many have said. With alternate tire compunds coupled with a clean track you will be able to achieve proper performance. With the availabilty of a wider range of tires any high speed traction issue of the hard factory front tires and the RealTracks surface is mitigated.

Thanks

[arch2b]

very well put sir :)

[arch2b]

in my search for sustainable flooring products i came across the following; http://www.expanko.com/REZTEC/products-REZ-Custom.html

this feels very similar to regupol but it seems to be much more customizable in terms of color and tile pattern. it may be worth looking into. you may even be able to replicate rcp like tile patterns. comes in rolls too.

[lornecherry]

I've been inactive on the forums for a while, as I've been tied up day and night with a work project (nothing to do with R/C unfortunately). Almost done though, so I'll be spending more time on the tracks/surfaces come December.

To comment on the flooring products ...yes "Gym" flooring and the colored surfaces Arch has suggested have great traction and are made from rubber similar to Regupol ... the main downside is portability ...or lack of it.

The "Expanko' surface has a weight of 1.2 lbs sq. ft. ...so a 10' x 10' track would weigh 120 lbs without any rails! Try schelping something like that to your friend's house for a Saturday night race.

Unless you've got room for a permanent track, materials need to be about half a pound per sq. ft. to make them "roll 'n go" over one shoulder. If you are looking for a permanent solution, then yes, this or any of the gym flooring companies all make durable, high traction surfaces that are perfect for our applications.

The key aspect when evaluating this type of flooring is to look at the thickness; 2mm is ideal ...just thick enough to maintain an even surface over the imperfections of an uneven surface (tile floor, thick carpet, etc.). Foam type materials can/should be a lot thicker ... but aim for .3 lbs per sq. foot density or less if you want to be able to handle your track easily, or use it on a raised surface such as a Ping Pong table. - Lorne

[lornecherry]

...back "on thread" and following up my last comments ... you'll notice that any of the successful commercial tracks (including the RealTracks) offer a degree of portability and simplicity in setup that DIY projects have a difficult time approaching. That portability is key to the products success, as few of us have the space for a permanent track. That said, each commerical track designer strives to get closer to providng both realism and portability ...at a market-acceptable price. Not so easy of a task, especially given the high performance of the D'nano.

[RealTracks]

in my search for sustainable flooring products i came across the following; http://www.expanko.com/REZTEC/products-REZ-Custom.html

this feels very similar to regupol but it seems to be much more customizable in terms of color and tile pattern. it may be worth looking into. you may even be able to replicate rcp like tile patterns. comes in rolls too.

Hey Arch,
That is an interesting material. I would not see a reason to try and replicate RCP tiles, They already have a fine product. RealTracks is designed to offer a completely different driving experience than RCP, not better, just different. Lorne is the man for the soft roll up surfaces. As we all know, he has been working hard at it for a long time and I look forward to his commercial product. It will give the small scale RC enthusiast (3) three unique and distinct track options, A porta-trax roll up, RCP interlocking mat, and RealTracks hard surfaced. With the new PN tire choices dNaNo traction is no longer an issue. I have 3500 lbs of new track material coming in with a slightly different texture and 30% lighter weight. Traction is consistent with the previous texture, however it provides a more uniform appearance when the light reflects off the track at certain angles. I am looking at different infield material options and I will give the products you linked a look, especially if they come in a rough surface. Thanks for the input.

[arch2b]

i'm not suggesting that you or anyone necessarily replicate rcp products, just that the rubber surface seems like a good fit for racing and there are 2 options really. a roll out surface and or tiles. the rubber already comes in 2 tiles sizes and apparently you can have custom tiles cut.
just saying that rubber tile track would be very interesting.

i've followed lornes tracks sine the bit charg days :p i've never had or raced on a roll up track so i really just can't comment on them to much other than subjective opinion. 95% of my track experience has been on tiles of various materials.

i only mentioned tiles in particular since atomic has made foam and carpet tiles (same pattern as rcp) which are being used in hong kong. carpet rcp tiles also peaks my interest. i've repeatedly asked for opinions and reviews of the carpet tile track however there is a bit of an issue on mzr regarding the matter which i would prefer not spread to here. suffice to say, i'm still waiting for a reply to my requests for information only.

i like options :)

[RealTracks]

I agree, more options = more interest. I weighed, and replied to your post in the context of this threads subject. I did not mean to imply that you were suggesting copying RCP’s product. A few years ago I bonded connecters similar to the current RealTracks connectors to thin, but heavy rubber mats that were used as tool drawer liners. The connections between the mats were almost seamless, but the Epochs traction rolled on that particular material. They are now tool drawer liners again. I can only guess, but I would think the dnaNos would perorm very well on that type of material. What I really like about thin rubber is how flat it lies toward the edge of the material as compared to thin EVA.

[arch2b]

understood, just wanted to make sure everyone reading understood as well ;)

[RealTracks]

Hey Arch,
Off topic, Were you able to view the rendering of your BBS wheel I e-mailed.

[arch2b]

off topic, yes. please feel free to post it to the wheel design thread :)

[Sinister_Y]

Hi,

Getting back to the plasti-dip treatment; found the following video on youtube.

Note, while this track is not Realtracks, it is a hard plastic based track. I'm posting this just to show the grip when using something like plasti-dip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5eC6ebRWt8

[RealTracks]

Interesting video,

Lets move this discussion to this thread.
http://www.tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=209045#post209045


Thanks for the link Sinister

Miles,