Winding Basics

[sherifx]

I know some people don't know the requisite information (as I don't) regarding the effects of windings & gauge etc etc... so lets get the info togeather

Higher Windings =
Lower Windings =
Max Suggested Windings =
Min Suggested Windings =
Higher Gauge Wire =
Lower Gauge Wire =


if there is anything I'm missing let me know. I plan on updating this based on the info I recieve to keep the info current.

oh and, we should probably include a tutorial as to how to actually wind your own motor.


sherif

[neurokinetik]

Here is a good link on winding a motor, with lots of pics:

http://www.carmoworld.com/parts-motor2.htm

Anyway, a couple of answers to your questions:

Less turns: Higher top speed, higher current draw, lower torque, shorter battery life.

More turns: Lower top speed, lower current draw, more torque, longer battery life.

Max suggested windings: I'm going to go with 85 for these motors. That's what the stage 1 uses, and I don't see why you'd want to ever go more than that.

Miniumum suggested windings: Definitely more than 25... :lol: 25 turns is unusable even with Neodymium magnets. PN Racing sells a 35 turn armature, that's the lowest I've seen so far in a 130 style motor. (540 motors like the 1/10th scales use often go as low as 8 or 9 turns, but that is because they are a larger motor with much more torque)

Some of the other important variables in motor design are the magnets and brushes. Particularly, the spring tension of the brushes on the commutator can have a large impact on the performance of a motor.

[aperson]

how do they effect the performance?

[neurokinetik]

Brushes: Lighter spring tension gives more speed. Too light causes arcing and poor performance.

Magnets: stronger gives more torque, less top speed. Weaker gives more top speed but less torque.

[sherifx]

Quick Questions:

how do you pull the tabs back on the XM armatures?
anybody every try doing say like a 30T Double like the larger size motors?
what are the effects of gauge sizes? what are the changes in going up or down in gauge size?

sherif

[rmyc]

35 double turn

[rmyc]

how bout a 264 turn...talk about tourque..wow

[rmyc]

i also have made a ~10turn triple..motor...it has awsome speed...and it wont fry ur esc, it'll fry ur batteries..lol :D

[sherifx]

rmyc, maybe you can help me then, I'm trying to get a motor to have decently hi rpms (30K +), with a lot of torque in the mid to high rpm range without frying the stock esc. To explain my application, I've built a drift car and I want to run it with the 4.40 (yellow) gear set. With my Spinbrush Hybrid (using the stage 2 armature), I can get the car to break traction of all four wheels on garage cement, but I still want even more torque, b/c the car can bog (due to the gearing) mid turns etc...


additionally, can you tell me if there is any problem with this winding technique. The black line indicates the direction of the wire winding:
http://www.freebmw.net/sherif/arm.jpg


sherif

[rmyc]

as far as i know the winds should overlap like this

[sherifx]

cool.. well then what do you think would be the best way to achieve my goals... I have 22, 26 and 30 gauge wire.


sherif

[rmyc]

the thicker the wire (smaller gauge) the more the torque, but less turns would fit on the amature ,which leads to less speed....it's all about balancing out the number of turn to that gauge of the wire

you mah also want to upgrad to neo magnets :
http://mini-zracer.com/shop/product.php?pid=327
it adds a ton of torque
tinyrc's sister site has great deals on them.

a full ball bearign can would help tons

[Nathan]

That is the full story- More current, more tourqe. More tourqe, more speed.

Simply unwinding your stock wire will decrease tourque and increase speed. Replacing it with a smaller gauge (bigger diameter) will increase tourqe and speed, but your batteries and PCB can only flow so much current, which is why tourqe drops. Inductance also affects the tourqe-speed balance, and windings effect inductance. That's why some 1/10 motors have multiple winds (10T double, triple, etc.), to alter the inductance, decreasing tourqe for more speed. Better magnets are usually a plus, different winds can negate the speed loss. 1/10 motors just use insanly strong magnets, especially for "punchy" applications such as touring cars.

Of course, the size of the motor limits your winding options as nuero pointed out. If you could wind one with 10T of 8G wire, and had the current to do so, it would be faster and tourqier, as well as draw huge amounts of current.

[sherifx]

Nathan, thanks for your input!

I wound a 43turn armature w/ 30 gauge. I love the speed of this setup, now I just need to pick up a BB can with Neo magnets... I think this should do: Yeah Racing (http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=144_21_80&products_id=5935&PHPSESSID=c0586e99ad635ef971bbc4a11ad34d53)


sherif

[Nathan]

That case will definatly do. I didn't know dinball carried that stuff...

[tenchu]

Im soo confused

What does touqe mean?

I thought more torque = more speed

So max speed will be lower turns. but will it have slower acceletation?
Max tourqe will be faster Spinning but will have lower speed?
Is this Correct?


I want to build 3 motors: SUPER Torque, Super Speed, and Balanced...

[neurokinetik]

Originally posted by sherifx
Nathan, thanks for your input!

I wound a 43turn armature w/ 30 gauge. I love the speed of this setup, now I just need to pick up a BB can with Neo magnets... I think this should do: Yeah Racing (http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=144_21_80&products_id=5935&PHPSESSID=c0586e99ad635ef971bbc4a11ad34d53)


sherif

Ooh, that's a good find. Cheaper than I've been able to get a BB can and Neos separately. I may have to stock up. :D

Don't bother with the Squat Neos. They are really only good for sticking your screws to when you dissassemble the car. They made no difference in performance for me.

Lastly, the combo that I talked about in the other thread (stage 2 arm reduced to 44 turns, timing advance, BB can with Drac's Neos) works quite well and does most of what you were looking for. Excellent in the midrange, top end is about the same as a good stock stage 2, enough torque that I can use it on a tight course with the blue gear set. Surprisingly, the Neos taking away the ability to coast was not an issue in the AWD car. It just meant I didn't have to brake going into corners, as the car slowed down pretty well on its own.

[sherifx]

well... I decided that the 43 turn was fast but not enough torque for my liking. It was great on straight-a-ways but not good for short distances... so I wound a 50 turn with 30gauge and omg... though it doesn't have the top end of the 47 turn or the 43, it has gobs of torque compared to the 43 turn and niiice increase in comparison to the 47 turn Stage 2 armature. Now, this is important to me b/c I'm building a little drift car for cement, so I need lots of torque to break the tires free. Depending on how the new 50 turn works, I may or may not try to make a 53 or 55 turn motor. We'll see!


sherif

[neurokinetik]

Try some Neos if you want torque... They make the blue gear set usable.

Or, alternatively, you could try something like this:

http://users.adelphia.net/~neurokinetik/180_armature.jpg

The top armature is from a stock Micro RS4 motor. (FK-180 style can) The bottom one is the 130 type that we are used to seeing. Given the same number of turns, guess which one will have more torque? ;)

Anyway, I realize I'm not the first one to try a 180 motor, but I think I will be spending more time on these motors than 130 style, as they definitely have alot more potential. Oh, and I think I set a new record for shortest time between buying a new motor and disassembling it... :lol: I think it was out of the package for about 5 minutes before I was working on getting the endbell off. These are a bit tougher to open than 130's.

[sherifx]

Well I wound the 54 motor and during the break in, it was a bit odd... it'd periodically stop, as if there wasn't enough power to get it moving, then when I spun it real quick it ran with tons of torque... then I ran the motor off of the xmod circuitry and after about 5min at full throttle, the underside was real hot... this doesn't happen with either the 47turn or the 50 turn. We'll see though. I'm starting to think that the 47turn and 50 turn setups will be my primaries when I get my Yeah Racing cans.


sherif

[neurokinetik]

I just reduced a stage 2 motor to 42 turns, and did the timing advance at the same time. Doing the timing advance at the same time as the wind reduction works nicely as you create slack in the winds when you advance the timing, but when you reduce the turns, you can take that slack back out. I didn't change magnets this time, as I am really looking for top speed on this one, and the spin brush magnets hurt the top end.

Anyway, this one needs to be tested in a car, but it sounds hella fast and smooth. Probably my best effort to date. Even compared to my best stage 2 motor in the latest pack I bought (which, out of the box, ran much faster and smoother than the others) this motor sounds way better. Unlike the 25 turn experiment, it doesn't take all day to reach top speed either.

One other thing, I was looking at the armature from the 180 can, and noticed that the brushes and timing are done much differently than they are in the 130 motor. It needs to be wound differently, and I'm probably going to hold off on doing timing tweaks for a bit until I fully understand the differences.

[rallger]

timing advance?
i know these are a lot of newbie questions but could you explain
?

[neurokinetik]

There is already a whole separate thread about it. Do a search.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

How few winds can you get away with without a timing advance and without a mosfet upgrade?

With stock S2 mags and with neo mags, if you guys don't mind.

[neurokinetik]

42 turns seems to be safe on the stock ESC. It draws about 700mA, with or without Neo magnets.

[Vagabond]

38T with Neo Magnets is safe with stock ESC too. I got one from PN racings and it gives me much torque. It's good in everything, just that it'll gives you less run time.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

First time unwinding the motors.

I'm having trouble getting the comms to let go of the wires in the FF180SH and S2 armatures(Spinbrush comms are simply soldered). The S2 and MB(Motionbrush 180) comms seem to have the wire hooked in a bend of copper. However, even with a small jewelers flathead, I'm having trouble getting the comm to let the wire free without breaking it.

Any helpful hints? Am I missing something completely? LOL :) Thanks.

[neurokinetik]

Originally posted by SuPrBuGmAn
First time unwinding the motors.

I'm having trouble getting the comms to let go of the wires in the FF180SH and S2 armatures(Spinbrush comms are simply soldered). The S2 and MB(Motionbrush 180) comms seem to have the wire hooked in a bend of copper. However, even with a small jewelers flathead, I'm having trouble getting the comm to let the wire free without breaking it.

Any helpful hints? Am I missing something completely? LOL :) Thanks.

I've been just cutting the wire, then soldering it back on to the top of those commutator contacts.

[SupraDJ]

how do you count the turns/winds? i've search but i still cant find anything. im a newbie to winding motors

[GaryMan]

you count as you wrap, and as far as know stock turn numbers people just count as they unwind

[SupraDJ]

so everytime you wind back to you starting point. thats one turn/wind?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Originally posted by neurokinetik
I've been just cutting the wire, then soldering it back on to the top of those commutator contacts.

Excellent, thats easy enough. :)




Just out of curiosity, do you know offhand the guage of wire used in the FF-180SHs from the Colgate Motion Brushes?

[geofroley]

I need some help with winding motors. The carmo site didn't give good enough directions.

[xxspeednplayaxx]

alright i understand winding, clock wise around the pole, then hook it on the contact, and repeat, heres the 64000 question, how in the world did neuro fit 30 winds of 26G wire on his motos, i can barely get 20 aorund 1 pole... this was my first time winding however... please help

[neurokinetik]

This is on the 180, right? Practice is the best thing I can tell you. The more motors you wind, the tighter they get, and the more turns you can fit.

One thing I have picked up is a method of feeding the wire with my right hand to keep the tension tight while turning the armature in my left to wind the wire around it. When I first started, I would hold the armature in one position in my left hand, and wind the wire around with my right hand. With my current technique though, my windings are much neater, tighter, and I can also wind a motor even quicker than before. I think it took me 30 minutes to do the 260 I just wound, if that.


On another note, I was just thinking about the advantages of double and triple winding over single winding using larger wire. Think of this... An armature only has so much room to fill with wire. Larger wire, by nature, has a tendency to waste more space by leaving small pockets of air between the windings. The idea behind double winding is to decrease the resistance of the wire coils by using several wires that effectively have the same resistence together as the single wind of large wire. However, several smaller strands will wind more colsely together, leaving less wasted space in the armature, and creating a better magnetic field.

[xxspeednplayaxx]

so what are the performance trade offs of single double and triple windings... g-l with the johnson motor...

[charliebrown]

I found another site with more helpful info:


http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor1.htm

Chuckster...

[Darklancer]

This may sound like a stupid question, but how would I get the pinion gear off the Xmod motor to put it on a new motor?

[geofroley]

Not a stupid question at all. Alot of people heat up the gears and pull them off.

[sessiz10]

Originally posted by Darklancer
This may sound like a stupid question, but how would I get the pinion gear off the Xmod motor to put it on a new motor?

Invest in a ninco pinion puller/press. Do a google search for a proffesor motor, he sells them on his slotcar site. You can also find other sites that carry it but his was the best price. The pinion puller should work on most motors and the press will work on standard motor cans.

[Darklancer]

Cool. now I can see if this motor is as fast as it sounds.

Guess I thought it was a stupid question b/c I always hear of these ppl making/ modifying their own motors w/out ant problem, but unfortunately, I'm not that smart when it comes to electronic motors.

[suprafreak33]

Originally posted by sherifx
I know some people don't know the requisite information (as I don't) regarding the effects of windings & gauge etc etc... so lets get the info togeather

Higher Windings =
Lower Windings =
Max Suggested Windings =
Min Suggested Windings =
Higher Gauge Wire =
Lower Gauge Wire =


if there is anything I'm missing let me know. I plan on updating this based on the info I recieve to keep the info current.

oh and, we should probably include a tutorial as to how to actually wind your own motor.


sherif


thank for the info

[charliebrown]

DAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!! I ruined ANOTHER motor! got a Kyosho stock motor from Wedginator and I decided to put on some turns of 26ga wire, I was soldering the wire to the terminal where you solder the wires, and GGRAAPPHSAAHDSIGNASDSDSSHI the corresponding terminal came down a bit, and the commutator's terminal came off the pole! DAMN!

[Phred168]

Found an interesting site on winding I'm sure someone will find helpful...

http://members.shaw.ca/climber/motors.html

[ben1112]

Do i need to upgrade the fets? can anyone direct me a tutorial on upgrading fets to use mod motors?

[Murcielago659]

Originally posted by charliebrown
DAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!! I ruined ANOTHER motor! got a Kyosho stock motor from Wedginator and I decided to put on some turns of 26ga wire, I was soldering the wire to the terminal where you solder the wires, and GGRAAPPHSAAHDSIGNASDSDSSHI the corresponding terminal came down a bit, and the commutator's terminal came off the pole! DAMN!

I know this is an old thread, and you've probably thrown it out already, but you can glue that back on, you know.