Motor windings findings

[neurokinetik]

I just had a couple of motors "take one for the team", so I could learn what we are dealing with as a baseline for performance. (I posted the same info in another thread, but I thought this kind of information should be in its own thread so as not to be overlooked)

I unwound both a stage 1 and stage 2 armature, and here is what I have to report:

Stage 1: 85 turns, wire thickness is less than 30 gauge. Probably 32 or 34.

Stage 2: 49 turns, 30 gauge.

Just for a kick, I also unwound my (ruined) X Speed: 49 turns, 30 gauge. :eek: Same as the stage 2...

I wonder why the X Speed seems noticably faster than the Stage 2 when running unloaded? This does explain why I can run with X Speed cars even with the Stage 2, though.

[sessiz10]

I found the same to be true (ran a stage 2 against xspeed miniz) this sorta confirms it. Now if only someone would attach a turbo to the XM and review the effects.;)

Thanks for the findings by the way.

[cyrc]

it could of been wrapped tighter because that also has something to do with torque and rmp and theres the flat wire thing too but i dont think its on either of these motors

[Nathan]

What about timing on the X Speed? Is it the same as the stage 2?

[rallger]

what would be a god resoucrce for learning how to do your own motor windings?

[Nathan]

www.MiniZracer.com . It's run by the same people as TinyRC, or something like that. There are any number of good threads, and they even sell wire and empty ball-bearing cans to use.

[rallger]

thanks a bunch

[neurokinetik]

Originally posted by Nathan
www.MiniZracer.com . It's run by the same people as TinyRC, or something like that. There are any number of good threads, and they even sell wire and empty ball-bearing cans to use.

You know what I really need are empty armatures...

Originally posted by Nathan
What about timing on the X Speed? Is it the same as the stage 2?

They both appear to have "neutral" timing. Maybe the X Speed can just has a little better magnets? But that might actually make it slower. Hmmm...

Anyway, here's some more data to throw out there...

I unwound one of those $1.99 generic motors that RS sells, and it has 72 turns of ~34 gauge. The brushes look kind of cheesy compared to what the other motors use, and the commutator is either aluminium or nickel-plated. It isn't copper, at least on the contact surface.

[theMonster]

The Mini-Z stock motor is 70 turns, that's why it burns the RS cars....but you think there would be a bigger performance gain going from 85 to 49 turns. 49 turns is what the x-speed is, but the mini-zs with it just seem quite a bit faster. I haven't raced one to see but.....anyone else notice this??

[Nathan]

I think some companies sell empty 130 size armatures. Coulda sworn that i've seen one before...

Someone needs to unwind a spinbrush motor.:D That should be interesting as well.

[neurokinetik]

Well, I just picked up my spin brush tonight, so here you go...

First thing I have noticed about this motor is that it has no bearing in the endbell at all. Not even brass. The motor shaft just rides in plastic. http://www.tinyrc.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif

Fortunately, I have a ball-bearing endbell laying around.
:D

The brushes look like the cheesy ones that the 1.99 motor uses, and they were coated in grease.

The motor is noticably torquier than either the stage 1 or two motors, though it spins quite a bit slower.

After unwrapping the armature, I can say that it uses 70 turns of ~32 gauge.

So where is all the torque coming from? I think it's the magnets. They look a bit thicker than the other motors I have open on my bench. Makes sense, since the tighter the magnet/armature tolerance, the more torque you get.

Time to swap these magnets into the Squat BB can along with the 25 turn armature I just wound. Oh, and it only took me about 30 minutes to wind it. No torque, but noticably faster than stage 1 or 2. We'll see what the better magnets do...

[cj1267]

Congrats neurokinetik this post is mentioned in the FAQ with your motor findings and credit for you.

[Deep Blue]

Nuro, as far as th XSpeed outruning the Stage 2 in some situations, by any chance did you get to see if the laminations on the XSpeed is balanced?

[neurokinetik]

I saw no signs of balancing (holes drilled in the armature or little pieces of epoxy on the corners). Maybe it is just wound better? The wire is a different color, but appeared to be the same guage.

[Deep Blue]

Neuro,

If they were red (rather than the typical copper) they may have been coated for arcing, or a double. Or maybe flat wound, or "pyramid" wound.

Ah hell, I guess it dosen't make a difference either way if you can still chase one down with a stage 2. Who knows, it may just be a stock-like Stage 2 just broken.

[neurokinetik]

Originally posted by Deep Blue
Neuro,

If they were red (rather than the typical copper) they may have been coated for arcing, or a double. Or maybe flat wound, or "pyramid" wound.


It definitely wasn't a double. That's easy to see.

[Deep Blue]

Hmmm. There are countless possibilities, and besides that, if you could still keep in pace with one, then there's no use even discussing it I suppose.

[neurokinetik]

Another one to add to the list:

Tamiya Plasma Dash - 27 turns, ~26Ga.

[sherifx]

Originally posted by neurokinetik
Another one to add to the list:

Tamiya Plasma Dash - 27 turns, ~26Ga.

what about current draw?

sherif

[neurokinetik]

In the current draw thread... 1.7A with no load. No wonder it's a FET killer...

[Deep Blue]

Neuro,

Did you experience any spikes with the Plasma? I only ask because a stock Xmod Stage 1 pulls more amps than that at 1.86@no load.

[neurokinetik]

Well, I have been testing the motors exactly the same way every time, and the figure I am getting is after the motor has reached full speed. It is the minimum that the current draw will be. Note that I found stock stage 1s to only draw .26A - .35A. That means the Plasma Dash draws 5.6x as much current as an average stage 1, and 3.5x as much as an average stage 2. That is substantial.

I have a Tamiya speed checker coming, and when I get it, I will do some current draw tests with the motors installed in a car, running on the checker. That should give more useful real world results.

[Deep Blue]

Neuro, that's odd.

I'm doing all of my testing through out the entire rpm range with a Fluke 73 III digital multimeter with the prerequisite auto-range. I wonder where the descrepancy is.

[theMonster]

Hey DB, that's the same meter I have. How are you doing your current draw tests??? I'd like to run some on a few motors and one that I'm winding myself.

[Deep Blue]

Monster, I simply set it to the last mode on the rotary dial, which is Direct Volt Amperage. It's auto-ranging so it will tell you how many Amps you are measuring. From that point I attach the negative lead to the negative terminal on the motor, and positive to positive. Done deal.

From there, just connect a voltage source (battery, PCB, etc) and measure away. If you're going to read it through a PCB, you'll have to apply throttle in order to get a reading.

Good luck.

[neurokinetik]

I really don't think that method is the right way to test current draw... that could account for the discrepancy. The current is supposed to flow directly through the meter, not be calculated from the voltage. (Hence the need for a meter that can handle a decent amount of current. Most Flukes should be able to do it, mine is one of the better RS models.)

[Deep Blue]

Neuro, what method are you using to test amperage?

[theMonster]

b/c the Fluke 73 III is no cheapie. It was a $300 meter, when new. All of Shack's meters are made by Fluke, so we should be able to draw equal conclusions here.

[neurokinetik]

Alright, here's a pic of a motor under test...

http://users.adelphia.net/~neurokinetik/motor_test_rig.jpg

http://users.adelphia.net/~neurokinetik/meter.jpg

You can see on my meter that there are separate inputs for current and voltage measurement. I connect the + wire off my battery pack to the 20A input on the meter, the COM of the meter to the + wire on the motor, then the - wire on the motor to the - on the battery pack to complete the circuit. If you want a schematic, I can draw one. I am using the DC 20A setting on the meter.

[Deep Blue]

Hmmm.....

Although my method is a hell of a lot more convienient, what's right is right. There must be a formula...

What amp draw have you gotten from an FF and/or FK? That should be enough data for me to calculate a formula to figure out the difference.

[neurokinetik]

Unfortunately, I don't have numbers on a stock 180 motor, as I modded it almost as soon as I got it. It currently pulls 480mA when out of the car, but that is now with 15 turns removed. The other 180 motor (GPM Hi Speed Modified) only pulls 280mA.

All of my current draw measurements are in this thread...

http://www.tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16023

[Deep Blue]

I have a -12 with some other mods, and I could just as well make a -15, but the amounts of variances from the way I may do a -15, to the way you do yours, are infinite.

Do you have any other motors (othat than the S1) that's in stock configuration?

[neurokinetik]

In the thread I posted, I have measurements for all of my hybrid and custom motors, as well as stock stage 1, stage 2, and two stock 180 motors. (I just picked up another Team Orion 180 today, and this time I measured it before I did anything with it.)

[Deep Blue]

2 Questions:

1: Do you have a link?

2: Do you list the voltage supplied?

[neurokinetik]

Originally posted by Deep Blue
2 Questions:

1: Do you have a link?

2: Do you list the voltage supplied?

http://www.tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16023

I haven't been measuring the voltage supplied, as I only have one meter, and during testing, it is obviously being used for the current measurement.

Checking the voltage on the pack now, it is 5.3V.

[Deep Blue]

Thanks. I'll bounce the numbers around. There's got to be a formula somewhere.

Your reading at 5.3v for a 180 (wasn't specified weather it was an FF180 SH, FF180 PH, or FK180SH/ph) was 0.21A. My readings at 8.3v were 1.39-1.80A. I'm sure the voltage had some affect on the outcome...but a difference of 857% is supernatural. What I do know is that my FET's turned to Hiroshima when my motor's readings hit 2.71A on 8.4v. I've built some motors to 2.5A (with the method I used to get amperage) and they're still running within the cars to this day.

I test at or near 8.4v, because that's been my observed limit for voltage capacity on a stock PCB. I run all of the motors at the voltage limit, and configure them from that voltage, to that "2.70A" limit, rather than the other way around.

So far, the only remotely noticible pattern is my test voltage of 8.3-8.4 would be 830-840% of what your readings were at 5.3v

Ex:

1.80A/8.30 = 0.21A.

The problem with this is that this formula for the other motors is completely thrown out the window. Maybe the current formula has something to do with this.:confused:

[neurokinetik]

Back to windings...

Team Orion Elite Stock motor for Micro RS4: 55 turns of 30Ga.

The 180 motors are wound very strangely compared to a 130 due to the fact that the brushes are turned 90° on the endbell relative to the magnets.

[TypeZer0]

do you have any pictures of how the 180 motors were wound?

[neurokinetik]

I took a few. I'll post them later, but I'll explain now. It actually was pretty straightforward once I saw the pattern.

On a 130 motor, you solder the wire to the comm terminal, then start winding around the pole right next to the terminal. (as in the pic. Start with the cyan arrow, end with the red.)

http://users.adelphia.net/~neurokinetik/winding.jpg

On a 180 motor, you solder the wire, but you actually start winding on the pole that is exactly 180° from the comm terminal. When you finish winding that pole, the end of the winding will go straight down to the terminal in line with the pole you are winding.

[Shane_882002]

can any of u make a tutorial because i really wanna make my own custom motor and another thing are u guys selling the motor because i want to to get a faster motor and show the rpms and a pic of the motors your selling, thanks bye
________
Isuzu motors polska (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Isuzu_Motors_Polska)
________
DIGITAL VAPORIZER (http://digitalvaporizers.info)
________
Avandia classaction (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/avandia/)
________
NEXIUM SIDE EFFECT (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/nexium/)

[neurokinetik]

RPMs of all the motors will be known soon... I just picked up an oscilloscope off of EBay. :D

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Welp, I just picked up some wire from RadioShack, they just had a variety pack with three guages, 22, 26, and 30. The S2 armatures are wrapped with 30, so I opted to go with the 26 gauge wire(22 would probably be too thick to do much with).

So now I have a 20 turn motor with 26 guage wire and I'm concerned it may draw too much energy for the stock FETs. I don't have a voltage meter or anything to check on my own unfortunately.




So, for all your electronic/motor guru's, do any of you have any estimations on what this motor may draw? Would it be safe to throw in my stock FET'd Xmod?


Motor energy draw thread is locked, it would probably be better off there, but I can't reply now...

[neurokinetik]

It will be the quickest XMod ever...




...to go up in smoke... :lol:



That motor will probably draw 2A without a load on it. More than a Plasma Dash, which has more turns (27) of the same size wire. It will also have less torque than the Plasma Dash, which was already found to be too weak to get up to full speed when used in an XMod. Figure about a 2mph top speed if that.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

D'Oh.

Well thats rather unfortunate.

I had thought about rewinding the motor with 22 or 23 winds, I couldn't fit 25 initially, which is why I opted for 20. However, it seems as though it may still be a waste of time even then.

The wire came from a variety pack I bought from RS that came with 3 gauges, 22, 26, and 30. I suppose I'll just have to order some 28g wire from another source try again.


Anyway, thanks for the help.

I will be upgrading the FETs in some manner, probably with a 3x2 stack of IRF7389 FETs and the voltage regulator. I was just curious as to if I could plug that motor in as is... :(

[neurokinetik]

Another motor to add to the list:

Mini-Z Racer Z130-A-BB: 46 turns of 30Ga

[Bash_N_Thrash]

Another motor to add to the list: Mini-Z Racer Z130-A-BB: 46 turns of 30Ga

I tried that motor briefly. I put the stock wiring and caps on it from a stage 2. Put the gearing from stage 2 blue. Torque is low, speed is good but takes a long time to get there. Took it out.

[neurokinetik]

Bought one of those Hoppin' Hydros Big Bad Johnson motors tonight. $5, you gotta love that. Out of the box, it will draw 1.3A on four cells. Not incredibly fast though. So of course I had to tear it apart to try to see what I could do with it.

It has 22 turns of what looks like 26Ga wire. It is also timed more like a 180 motor, with the brushes rotated quite far relative to the magnets.

The first rewind attempt, I wound it like a 130, with 12 turns of 22Ga. It was pitiful in performance, and drew a whopping 6A. :eek: If it performed at all, I would have said bag it and threw it into the FET modded car. Just to see if they could take it. My money says they could. Anyway, second attempt was wound the correct way, like a 180. I wound 25 turns of 26Ga, because at first look, it looked like the wire was 28Ga. Looking at it now, it looks like it is 26Ga. So the rewound motor is slower and draws less current. My fingers are already sore, else I'd give it another go tonight. I think I'm going back to the 22Ga wire, and see if I can get 15 turns on it, along with the correct timing.

[LiLStagg]

:( :( :( Nero can you helpp me out here, i want you to try somthing for me, ok could u try 45 turns of 31 gauge wre in a bb can, i have done this and its pretty fast but can you tell me if it will fry stock fets? it is a very fast motor to me with tourqe well thanks for ANY of your help

[neurokinetik]

I've run similar motors to that with no ill effects. You should be fine on the stock FETs.

[moebrown20]

Neuro, I know it has been awhile since you have been on this thread, but I would like for you to run a test for me.
26gauge silver wire, 30turns, and neo magnets.
Whats your review on that?

[Phred168]

I'd imagine ~1.5-1.7 amps if wound right.

[moebrown20]

I'm looking for 3-5 amps!
That's what I need. Got any suggestions?

[jon.jon]

Originally posted by moebrown20
I'm looking for 3-5 amps!
That's what I need. Got any suggestions?


"3-5 amps" what size cells are you using, Cs?

I got a suggestion use a 16D motor like the one you have in your avatar Im sure you can get that bad boy to pull what you want 3 amps minimum on the 16D

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by jon.jon
"3-5 amps" what size cells are you using, Cs?

I got a suggestion use a 16D motor like the one you have in your avatar Im sure you can get that bad boy to pull what you want 3 amps minimum on the 16D
When I got it, it was pulling 4 amps minimum!
I took it apart, cut it down so that it fits a 130! It only pulls about 2.2 now. I have a 16D in my ford focus, it's not green like the picture(the green one I cut up so the 130 would fit) it's black. Lots of torque but low rpm's, have to do it over when I finish my "XZ" project.

[jon.jon]

:eek: what was you using for power?

[moebrown20]

I was using 4 lithium-ions (7.4 volts) each batt was about 1500 mAh. I had to put a cut off switch on the batteries so I wouldn't go below the 2.9v.
I rather use a modified 30 turn 280. Less modification (just heatsink & drive shaft)
What do you have in your car(s)?

[jon.jon]

start with the white CTS, plasma dash amature neo magnets bearing can and endcap the other end the civic this is my newest creation that has really fast, speed bearings it has the Team Orion modified core amature 40 turn inside of a 180 toothbrush can and plasma dash endcap with bearings this suckas way faster than the PD motor setup last but not least the middle is a team orion elite modified coreless motor I cant give no description on this except for all the hype about brushless motors should be included with this motor unbelivable performance unbelievable speed and unbelievable torque.

I have one question for you how much bigger is the 16D amature compared to a 180 if not the same size?

[moebrown20]

Nice cars! the 16D shaft is longer about 3.5 to 4.5 mm(I did this by eye) their is no other difference in it that I see (I did a switch and it worked!).
I have a 280 Modified Motor I use in my ford focus(1/24 strech) when I go out drag racing. I have a pic of ford with a 130, 30turn silver hemi wind. Plus a beefed up turbo. Post it in a sec.

[moebrown20]

here it is.

[jon.jon]

WHOA I love your power plant!!!

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by jon.jon
WHOA I love your power plant!!!
Thanks, it's a 3.7 Volt 1400-Mah Graphite Lithium Ion. It about 40 grams per cell. Even tho the motor is a hemi wind 130, this baby flies.
How do you wind your motors?

[jon.jon]

Originally posted by moebrown20
Thanks, it's a 3.7 Volt 1400-Mah Graphite Lithium Ion. It about 40 grams per cell. Even tho the motor is a hemi wind 130, this baby flies.
How do you wind your motors?

I havent wound a motor in a while if its worth doing I normally just take a few turns off any other time I just hand wind with a thicker gauge wire try to put bearings .


By any chance do you have any pictures of your 16D Id like to see what the amature looks like?

[moebrown20]

I don't have any pictures yet. I will take it apart tonight (at work now) to show you the difference. The main thing I like about the 16D is the thick magnets!(almost a 1/4" thick) All you need to launch this baby is a v1 board, h bridge, or relay to handle 4 lithiums(any 130 motor I used was nearly fried after 2 hard runs except the falcon motor). I had to weigh down my front end just to keep it down.:D

[moebrown20]

Sorry for a blured picture, didn't know my daughter had the camera before I got home(she's one).

[mod_o_matic]

Heh, i stuffed a 180 size ampatur (sp?) in a 130 can, all i know is the magnets are not big enough!

Were abouts did you get those li-ions? The 1500 Mah "Graphite" ones? And how the heck do ya charge them?

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by mod_o_matic
Heh, i stuffed a 180 size ampatur (sp?) in a 130 can, all i know is the magnets are not big enough!

Were abouts did you get those li-ions? The 1500 Mah "Graphite" ones? And how the heck do ya charge them?
<<<<<----- that was a 16d before I cut it to fit a 130 amature.
the batteries I got from onlybatteries.com. They are too big for the stock xmod, the pic you see is a 1/24 extended xmod ford focus. I charge them in about a half hour using a lemar charger.(very expensive! 60-70 bucks)
Do anyone knows where to get some 28-30 gauge silver wire from? I like the speed of my stage4 motor I made(for a stock car, did 35mph on 10 tooth pinion! At 1.50 amps) but I would like to change the copper to silver to study the differences between the two.

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by neurokinetik
RPMs of all the motors will be known soon... I just picked up an oscilloscope off of EBay. :D
It's been awhile since you last posted, but did you get that oscilloscope?
If so could you start a thread on rmp's(with voltages)?

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by neurokinetik
RPMs of all the motors will be known soon... I just picked up an oscilloscope off of EBay. :D
It's been awhile since you last posted, but did you get that oscilloscope?
If so could you start a thread on rmp's(with voltages)?

[jon.jon]

Has anyone had any luck winding with 22ga?

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by jon.jon
Has anyone had any luck winding with 22ga?
I used the 22 gauge. I used 15 turns with neutral timing in a 130 can. My first test was with lithium. I almost lost a good set of batteries. It pulled 9.6AMPS on startup:eek: Overall I did not like it. I'm now testing a 35turn & a 30 turn silver wire setup. Since silver has the lowest resistance, I hope that this baby flies :D

[jon.jon]

Originally posted by moebrown20
I used the 22 gauge. I used 15 turns with neutral timing in a 130 can. My first test was with lithium. I almost lost a good set of batteries. It pulled 9.6AMPS on startup:eek: Overall I did not like it. I'm now testing a 35turn & a 30 turn silver wire setup. Since silver has the lowest resistance, I hope that this baby flies :D


Did you use neo magnets and BB can, did you run it if so how was the speed?
I want to make a really hot motors. Im ready to experiment with the 22ga wire.

[mod_o_matic]

Team Orion's Elite stock motor

Are they any good for the Xmod with the blue gears a 7.2 li-ion? I dont want to moddify it tho :P



BUT: I was running a Mini-t motar stock: 5 AMPS max !!!! BUT, lots and lots of tourqe with good speed...

next: I got a motor, bigger then a 130, but same lenght of a 180...what size is it? It has MANY raps on it with thin wire..i am gonna get some wire from radio shack and test my skills!

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by jon.jon
Did you use neo magnets and BB can, did you run it if so how was the speed?
I want to make a really hot motors. Im ready to experiment with the 22ga wire.
I usually test with a stage 2 can, if I like what I see and hear then I test it with a different setup.
mod_o_matic: I got a motor, bigger then a 130, but same lenght of a 180...what size is it? It has MANY raps on it with thin wire..i am gonna get some wire from radio shack and test my skills!
Do you have a picture of it? It may be a 280 or a 260 motor. Where did you get it from?

[mod_o_matic]

I think its a 280, but flat on the top and bottem...

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by mod_o_matic
I think its a 280, but flat on the top and bottem...
It's a 260 like the big block V12 on ebay.
Do you have more?

[Horshu]

Is there only one type of wire that can be used (laminated copper), or is there anything of higher conductivity that is available?

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by Horshu
Is there only one type of wire that can be used (laminated copper), or is there anything of higher conductivity that is available?
There is silver wire, but it is very expensive. There's nothing higher (in conductivity, plus the lowest resistance) than silver.

[Horshu]

Sounds perfect (I'm not too concerned with cost...I've already dropped about $500 in aluminum/carbon fiber perf parts, so I'm moving over to power improvements. I had been thinking about gold wire, but it can't really handle the temperatures.
Is motor wire a special kind of wire such that getting silver motor wire would be difficult, or is it somewhat easy to come by for the right price?

[moebrown20]

Originally posted by Horshu
Sounds perfect (I'm not too concerned with cost...I've already dropped about $500 in aluminum/carbon fiber perf parts, so I'm moving over to power improvements. I had been thinking about gold wire, but it can't really handle the temperatures.
Is motor wire a special kind of wire such that getting silver motor wire would be difficult, or is it somewhat easy to come by for the right price?
A few weeks back, I did a search on silver wire. So far I only 2 site had them...... I may have to go through the yellow pages.
I already have a motor that reach 82-84km. With a silver wire setup, I wonder what the top end will be???

[Horshu]

The problem I'm having is I added 20% or so to my car's weight, and so far, the only power adds I've made are water dipping and neo magnets. The neo helps to beat a stock stage 2, but my speed checker only shows up to 20 km/hr, so I need to add lithium ion, but going this far, I want as much power as can fit on my car, even if I have to use exotic materials. Plus, as much as I've read into motor improvements, I never ran into any changes in material itself, so I figured it's a potential area to improve power

BTW: What sites did you find that had the silver wire?

[Horshu]

Found one site: RCButlers has .50 and .55 for $10, so it's much cheaper than I expected.