View Full Version : BitChar-GMotors! - Hardcore tech thread!
Hey there, been lurking here for a few days and I saw your Bit-Zap thread.
I'm handy with a soldering iron, and a hacker by nature. I don't have the cashflow to mess with anything other than my ZZ right now, but you could really help me out.
I would like to ask a few favors, from anyone really, I don't care. I'm working on some theories and some quick soldering tricks to really speed up the ZZ.
1) Could you measure the voltage coming to the motor in your bit-zap, with only one battery attached? I can measure from my stock ZZ too.
2) Could you (or anyone, actually) scan or take a really high res, up close photo, of both sizes of the board inside the Bit?
Anyone who could help, it'd be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to reverse engineer the ZZ, but it'd help if I had something to go by in reference to the Bit and Bit-Zap setup. Thanks!
headhunter555
09-30-2002, 07:42 PM
well ill look around yesterday i just say links to shcomatics (i spelled the wrong i just know it) to ZZs if i dont find them they were on the site i just cant remeber were...
headhunter555
09-30-2002, 07:46 PM
Here ya go!
http://tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1383
scroll down a little there 4 or 5 links, i cant say if this is what u need i didnt download any of them but should be worth a shot!
Those schematics are only for the controller... :( :( :(
Sigh... hey did anyone notice there's a spot for a "turbo" button on the schematics? :cool:
tried the "turbo" pin on the IC... doesnt do anything. I also saw some surface mount resistors near the motor solder pads. I bypassed them, same thing. No results. I'm still hacking!!!
lowerdfool
10-01-2002, 09:42 AM
keep up the good work. The more we know about little things we can add or remove on these boards the better we'll be in the future. If you come across anything interesting please post if you don't mind.
I'm going to try to build an intermediate board. I don't know how well it is going to work, but what it will do, is intercept the "forward" and "backward" eletricity, and use it as a trigger. If all goes well, it will drive the motor directly off the battery, instead of driving it through the circuit board.
Hopefully I'll be able to build these on a lightweight, small footprint pcb with submini components so it'll be able to fit on top of the chassis and still inside the shell, and hopefully the extra torque it gives will outperform the load of the extra weight. We'll see how it goes. It might take me a few days to work it out, but parts are cheap and I have a lot of what I need already. I just need to think through how I'm going to wire up all these rectifiers and SSR's.
If it works well, I'll post a schematic, and I might sell affordable "booster boards" for people that don't wanna build one themselves.
lowerdfool
10-01-2002, 03:12 PM
great idea. that alone should bring the zipzap's speed up to par with the BCG's. I was wondering if you could add in a small loop of wire to bypass some of the other electrical components and suply the extra power to the motor.
yah. like I said, I tried bypassing some of the resistors with a little loop of wire. The only thing I can think of now is to make the "forward" and "backward" trigger a relay (I'm hoping that I can find a small solid state relay!) that will have a lot less resistance, and should be more like feeding the motor directly from the battery. I'm also kinda cheesed off right now as it appears one of my co-workers has -- for lack of better words -- tactfully acquired my multimeter. :( Hopefully it turns up somewhere. I was hoping to be able to measure my motor output voltage.
I have also been using NiMH Rechargeable cells in my remote, which should put out 2.50 volts fully charged, instead of the 3.0 volts I'd be getting if I used alkalines. I might try using some rayovac renewals, as I believe they actually do hold 1.5v each on a full charge.
Hey, I don't know if this is of any interest to you guys, but I've been seeking ways to speed up my zipzap and I found a great one.
Yesterday while goofing around I decided to run my 16,000 RPM motor straight off of a 9 volt battery. It hummed about 7 times faster than before and I left it going for 5 minutes straight and it barely even warmed up (no burning it out).
So today, I ripped out my 1.2V NiMH and rigged a 9v to the top of my car and this thing hums!! I can't fit the body on with it like this, but this sucker flys even with the added weight of the 9V.
And it didn't hurt the electronics any. Not only does it go about 4 times faster now, it also doesn't have the steering lag it used to. But it does tend to tip over a lot and be hard to steer. I'm hoping to find one of those little 3.6V camera batteries (I believe it's also 1/3AAA size) in NiMH style to replace my 1.2V with. Then this thing would kick but for sure.
Let me know your thoughts on this Mod.
I'll try to post pictures of the 9v one later, and the 3.6v one when I'm done.
-Alex
Dude! a 3.6V camera battery would be bad ass... Thanks for the tip... I wonder how the hell 9v doesn't damage the circuitry at all. amazing!
Namuna
10-01-2002, 05:04 PM
Hey ax0n,
I'm about to head out to RadioShack to pick up this DMM (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F008%5F002%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D812)
What are your thoughts on it? I know it's overkill for just testing Bits, but I figure I might use it for other things. I'm just worried that it might not be 'accurate' enough to give a decent rating.
...Oh, and :eek: :eek: :eek: for that 9v mod! (Welcome to the Community btw Axel)
I actually just bought a replacement for mine:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F008%5F002%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D810
it's on sale like 10 bucks... don't forget a battery! it takes a 12 volt. The cat number for the batteries is 23-279 - it comes with 2 and they are SMALL!!! I think I might use the other one in my ZZ... hell if you can run 9v why not try 12? :D And it's small enough it will fit inside. I also am trying a 6 Volt 1/3N size battery too.
This is the multimeter that got stolen from me... hopefully it'll get returned... I miss it.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F008%5F002%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D810
it's a good one too, and does automatic ranging, plus it comes with a battery in it already ;)
I'll let you guys know how my testing works out.
with the stock battery in the car, charging using my NiMH Batteries, the motor is getting 1.27 volts.... not bad considering the barrery is flating at 1.29 volts. I'm not sure that a relay will speed the motor up. :(
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, I lied. The 1/3N battery I got is 3 volts.
BUT with a few wires and snipping away a plastic tab, it fits (not perfectly) inside my ZZ.
The Radio Shack cat no. is 23-265. This thing HAULS ASS. It's a lithium battery, 3 volts, and not rechargeable. It makes me wish my ZZ had an on-off switch. maybe I'll wire one up. :D
Pros:
mind boggling speed! this thing probably would outrun my stock $20 Tyco R/C car I got at Target (it's not a Canned Heat, it's bigger, a red car that came with ramps and a "ring of fire" to jump through. I can't recall the name of the kit. It's definitely a sleeper!
Cons:
too fast. Flips over while steering. I took the front tires off, and it doesn't flip over now :) But it also doesn't really steer very well either. I need to come up with some really hard compound tires. This is where I wish the front tires from the Bits would fit the ZZ.
The battery doesn't fit PERFECTLY. you have to trim away a little plastic tab, and the circuit board won't fit in the case anymore, because the 1/3N battery is a little larger in diameter, I had to hold down the clear plastic board cover with a small piece of scotch tape. No biggie.
Not rechargeable. :( And at FIVE ****ING DOLLARS per battery, this could get pretty expensive. It'd be a neato trick to use if you were going to race little neighborhood kids, but it's just not cost effective to run it like this all the time.
proud owner of a dead ZZ. The little 12 volt killed it. May she rest in pieces :( Now I wish I had a spare one laying around. I'm all bored with nothing to do for the next 4 hours at work.
Actually, I kinda wanna cry. :(
WOOHOO!!! the stock battery works fine. I just needed to clean the contacts off a bit - back to experimenting. I don't know why the 12V acted to stupid. :( I think I'll refrain from doing that again.
Told ya it hauled with more voltage!!!
Where the heck did you find a 12V battery that would fit in there?!!! The 1/3N 3V sounds sweet... just wish we could find em rechargable.
I haven't gotten a chance yet to get a smaller one for mine... will soon though. Keep me updated on your progress! :-)
-Alex
go_zz_go
10-01-2002, 10:29 PM
for good hard front tires get em off a muscel machines 1:64 scale car like a match box car they have a web site muscelmachines.com
the front tires fit perfect and are pretty hard the rear tires make a really cool mod they are fat 3 times as wide as stock you say it wont fit? ha trim a little on chasis and since my body is slammed i just put it in the stock spot wham perfect fit also cool rims come with em and all the mod they need are a hole drilled in middel for it to fit i got a cuda and flamed out pt cruiser they are die cast and heavy but a cool body for showoh yeah they have removeable lake pipes you know the exhaust down the side to cool just pop off and glue barely got a decent camera soo i will post just pics off the hieghts i did they are to blurry for details im goin to post em under my thread easy mod 1
Originally posted by Axel
Told ya it hauled with more voltage!!!
Where the heck did you find a 12V battery that would fit in there?!!! The 1/3N 3V sounds sweet... just wish we could find em rechargable.
I haven't gotten a chance yet to get a smaller one for mine... will soon though. Keep me updated on your progress! :-)
-Alex
It's a GP27A.
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/23/23-279.jpg
if that doesn't show up, go here:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F012%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=23%2D279
It's about 1 inch long, and thinner around than a pencil. 12 volts.
go_zz_go: I have a muscle machines Ford Focus FR200 at home (I love Ford Focus, and I own one, so I had to have the FR200!), so I'll give that a try. Thanx's for the heads up that could be really helpful.
Tech_Lord
10-02-2002, 12:13 AM
p.s [Namuna Edit]!
Did someone say "troll"?
Who [xxx] in your wheaties this morning eh?
Namuna edit: No cursing ax0n.
lowerdfool
10-02-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by ax0n
with the stock battery in the car, charging using my NiMH Batteries, the motor is getting 1.27 volts.... not bad considering the barrery is flating at 1.29 volts. I'm not sure that a relay will speed the motor up. :(
What's the resistance look like from the motor position to the battery itself? maybe the circuit is just slowing it down too much? can you measure amperage that small? I'm sure it's possible somehow. just a thought....:)
Wow, that's a sweet battery you picked up there....
Check this out, I think I found the perfect battery for our needs:
http://www.ptibattery.com/english/button.htm
These are button Lithium Ion Batteries... And yes, Lithium Ion (not regular lithium) are rechargable. IF you go there and look under the solutions tab it gives charging directions. The best of these batteries is only 7.2 mm tall, and 24 mm in diameter. That would fit perfectly with a little shaving. And this thing has a capacity of 120 mAh and puts out a wopping 3.6V. Only weighs 7.2 grams too. Sound like a good one?
I wonder how difficult it would be to rig the zipzap charging station to work with this.... Do any of you guys know about the neccesities for moding charging stations?
-Alex
Originally posted by Axel
Check this out, I think I found the perfect battery for our needs:
http://www.ptibattery.com/english/button.htm
The cylindrical battery (http://www.ptibattery.com/english/cylindric.htm) may be even better. LC12160 is 3.6V, 80mAh, 12mm x 16mm, 5g.
those are all cool...but how do you BUY from them? :(
it looks like they make them, and distribute them to people. I can't find where I can buy cells like this though.
Mattydiah
10-02-2002, 10:12 PM
Hey all, first post here. I just got a ZZ PT Cruiser earlier this week and I plan to get the FF upgrade kit this weekend. While I'm at Radio Shack I plan to pick up a few small batteries if they are cheap to try out and see what works with a ZZ and what doesnt.
I have a few ideas on how to get the ZZ's going a little quicker, but I'll post more about that when I pick up some different batteries.
Hope it works:D
Hey aXon... Guess what I found? FREE LI-ION BATTERY!!!
Hehe, check this place out:
http://www.able-battery.com
They make the same size button li-ions in a 3.6V model and they'll send any one who fills out their form a free sample !!! I just filled it out. I really hope they send me one... hehe :D
Just find the battery model number and click "free sample". Let me know if they send you anything.
Mattydiah,
Good to have you on the team!!! Keep us informed of your success, as I'm sure you'll have plenty. And don't be afraid to try out stuff with these guys... the ZZ's circuitry seems to be very hard to fry so far :-) Same with the motors! I ran one on a 9v battery for about 7 minutes straight and it barely ever heated up!
-Alex
Axel you DA MAN!!!
I just finished cutting out and painting my nissan R390 GT1 slot car body. With NAWWWWS (lol) and red gears my ZZ hauls some tail, even with the stock battery and a good charge! I'll get photos soon.
My advice to anyone:
F&F Street Tuner Kit and a chepo lexan body does wonders. I am holding the body on with hook-and-loop tape. The body set me back less than 2 bucks.
I'm applying for a sample now. Evil, Evil, Evil. I love it!
lowerdfool
10-03-2002, 08:26 AM
I was just thinking about the L-ION batteries being used. Can you find these in a small watch battery size? about the same diameter as the oem battery in our zz's, but 1/3 the height. If so why not stack 3 inline to up the voltage and use the original mounting location. also what will you be using for charging with the 2.4v and up?
aXon:
I thought you'd like that :-)
Your car sounds sweet!! I think I might try to get myself one of those lexan bodies.
loweredfool:
Ya, you can get them that small, but they hold practically nothing then... something lie 25 mAh a piece. That goes fast at high voltage. Plus, if you start getting much over 4 or 5 V then you risk shorting your circuitry and it's just too darn fast to handle at all then. I hooked a 9V up to mine (strapped it on top) and ever with the nearly trippling of the cars weight it was almost uncontrollable it was so fast and it flipped all the time. One of those Li-Ion batteries will give you 3.6V which is plenty.
I just use the regular charger on my current 2 cell 2.4V setup. Since it's still NiMh it charges jut fine on the stock charger, it just takes longer. For the Li-Ion batteries you'd have to modify the charger to put out exactly 4.2V of power to the battery. For every .1 volt less than that it makes your battery capacity/life go down a ton, and it you go over 4.25V then you blow the battery. That's the only downfall of Li-Ions... they're fragile as heck (and expensive.
lowerdfool
10-03-2002, 10:35 AM
some more interesting info for you to look into axon.
multimeter readouts between bits & zips (http://tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12100#post12100)
Mattydiah
10-03-2002, 03:24 PM
What is the max mA that these things can hande? I see they sell them up to 1500 milliamps, but I would imagine that would fry the circuitry considering that the stock battery is what, 120 mA??
I think I'm going to order two if I can, one to my apartment and one to my parents house. I know, I'm evil :D
lowerdfool
10-03-2002, 03:35 PM
stock is 100 MA. try somewhere around 120 to 200. I'd say 200 would be close to pushing it although our circuit boards do add a lot of resistance so it might be ok.
Your reading that wrong, those numbers are mAh not MA. They are just capacity ratings which don't affect anything except the amount of time that you can use the battery before recharging.
the stock battery puts out more than 200 mA (it pegged my multimeter that only measures up to 200). Only 110 or less is making it to the motor in mine.
Mattydiah
10-03-2002, 03:47 PM
Alright, I ordered two batteries, one rechargeable Li-ion, and one regular Li-SOCl2.
The Li-SOCl2 is part number ER14250M (the first battery listed under "Power Type Battery") and can be found here (http://www.able-battery.com/production/index.htm)
The rechargeable Li-ion is part number Li14500 and can be found here (http://www.able-battery.com/production/index_6.htm)
If you click the part numbers you get a detailed description of each battery, I just found that out (wow am I smart!:rolleyes: ).
Anyways, hopefully it wont take forever to ship these, I'm itching to try them out!!
Namuna
10-03-2002, 05:07 PM
- Since there's no specific info on the Stock NiCads in the Bits, it can't be confirmed what the 'rated' mAH is...I was under the impression it was more in the range of 50mAH (considering the MUCH longer runtimes on the 120mAH/150mAH NiMH, a rating of 50mAH on the NiCads makes more sense)
If you want the specific volts/amps that the cars put out to the motor, go to the thread that lowerdfool linked above.
rrvball
10-09-2002, 04:13 AM
Did anybody ever receive any of those free Lithium Ion rechargeable batteries? If so, how did they work? Did you figure out a way to change the charger?
I requested a free sample and heard back via eMail from the company and they tried to give me some really low mAH rated piece of crap. I assured them that the big fat cell was the one I wanted and that I really needed 130 mAH. They wanted all sorts of specifics. I told them it was for a small project that involved a radio reciever and some other stuff but that I was under a non-disclosure and couldn't really talk about it. Actually I am under NCA on a lot of stuff. hmm... ;)
Anyhow, We'll see if I get the sample or not.
Wow, lucky you! I never even heard back from them by e-mail. And no battery yet :-(
Mattydiah
10-09-2002, 01:21 PM
They just asked me how many of each battery I wanted, and what my company did. I just told them I work for a company that makes small bettery operated toys.
Hopefull mine will get here soon. ;)
PT Bruiser
10-10-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Axel
aXon:
For the Li-Ion batteries you'd have to modify the charger to put out exactly 4.2V of power to the battery. For every .1 volt less than that it makes your battery capacity/life go down a ton, and it you go over 4.25V then you blow the battery. That's the only downfall of Li-Ions... they're fragile as heck (and expensive.
Man!! I have to say, I'm totally awed by all the info. on this forum. I found out about Zips from a PT Cruiser forum I participate in. I had NO idea these were that mod-able! Now Im totally stoked. I just went out yesterday to get a longer telescoping antenna for the contoller. I will probably change in out soon. As far as this particular thread goes, I just thought I would tie it in to the A/C to D/C controller mod thread. It seems in that thread, it was discussed one could get an adapter rated at a greater voltage than needed, and then regulate it down to just what was needed. Seeing as these Li-Ion batteries seem pretty unforgiving, this would be the way to go.
At any rate, keep up the teriffic detective work! I've opened my Zip to check it out, but I'm gonna keep glued to this forum before I actually break out a soldering iron! I dont think I have quite the resources you guys do, so I only want to swap batteries once or twice. In the meantime, Im gonna make this Zip loose some weight!!!
Thanks again:D
ts185r
10-14-2002, 12:49 AM
That's funny, I got a few of them 3.6 volt lit. batteries stiing in front of me on my desk. Now I know what to do with them. I know where I can pick up a few holders for them, and I will. Hmmmm, PT cruiser with a "fuel cell" in the bed?
I'll let ya all know.
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